Glenrock State Conservation Area update for 11 Jun

Well after being told by family members that "I should get off my high horse And stop acting like I own the glenrock trails" after telling them it's too wet tomorrow, I am not covinced we will ever be successful in curbing wet weather riding.

These people know all the issues, know the time put into getting what we have and still think it's sweet to ride in hers conditions.

Makes you feel like giving up.

You should ride a horse in this weather either, that would trash the trails.

We will sort it, just like everything else.

Fatarse, while that would be a rocking logo, in EMPY's heart there is no way I could replace the wacka packa in a bit of spooning action.

Nice thought though.

The trails have been there long before you guys saw them.
The trails will be there long after you give up making them.
Be happy in that you are allowed to build something on Public Land.
If the general public do something in public land that is against your hopes and desires.
Tough Shit.
Until you get rangers policing the park rules.
Tough Shit.
You'll never get them policing rules about wet weather, one way on trails etc.
You said it, "no budget for fences".
If you feel so passionate about bulding trails that don't get wrecked by riders.
Buy some land, build your own trails, build 6 foot razor wire fences, and go nuts with you and your mates pumping the trails all week, and shovelling the ruts all weekend.
Everyone who rides Glenny should respect your effort to have us in there legally. No one I speak to respects your new trails all that much. Just keep em maintained regardless of the weather and put up with the public using land they are entitled to use basically anyway they can as who is going to stop them?

And that attitude amongst the riding public ferret head is why we have so much trouble with land owners accepting trails on their land.

We are our own worst enemy.

Sad thing is, this weekend is predicted to be fine (rain till Friday). People will ride despite the mud bath on the trails, and I know it is there choice, but it is still disappointing.

Yes people will ride regardless of the trails being legal or not, but once the signage goes up, the parks will be serious about shutting down non-legal trails to a piont that they aren't ride able without a lot of work. This is what would have happened to the whole network and its a shame people can't respect whats there and whats being done.

But, your argument about it being public land is bullshit. Public land does not infer the right of anyone to do anything on the land. The land is to be used as managed and the National Parks and Wildlife Act would have a lot of ammunition to shoot down your points. Granted its not policed in all areas due to resourcing and political will, but it does set the law about what can and can't be done in a National Park.

Similar legislation exists for the governance of crown and other so called "public land".

Misuse it and the legal status can be taken away by the stroke of a pen. Yes we could all still ride there illegally, but it could also be made very hard to do that. Is that what we want, just because its public land and we can do what we want?

Just because this is the general attitude does not mean we have to accept it. Not every rider will respect the trails, we know that, we aren't stupid, so please, don't patronize Doesn't mean we should stop trying to inform people of the long term damage of riding in the wet.

Lets be clear about this. What we are talking about is riding after heavy heavy downpour. We aren't talking about riding after a few days of light rain.

The trails have been designed to cope with riding after a bit of rain, but surely we can see that the rain over the past few days has been a little more than a bit of rain.

exactly empy. I think it is a shame that there is a group of riders that really couldn't give a stuff about the sport generally. Such a shame. That kind of attitude will see NPWS shut trails down. They will see that mtb riding it is to costly for them economically (they have sunk a crap load of cash into glenrock) and damaging to the environment, and they will choose the easy way out which would be closing the trails.

But absolutaly, if closure was to occur, new trails would pop up, we will still have somewhere to ride (we will all happily ride illegal trails if forced to) however these trails wouldbe crap with no flow, no thought, as they will be built in an afternoon with a rake and thats about it.

Do i like riding in the mud?? yes, it adds another technical element to the riding, is riding in the wet sustainable?? no. Should there be a group that advocates for sustainable long term riding, Hell yes... If you don't like it.

Tough Shit!!!!

I'm sure everyone here loves riding the technical rutted and degraded trails, but there is a place for them, and a National Park is not that place. Trail features created by erosion might be fun to ride, but they are also damaging to the area they are in.

If you want rutted blown out technical trails, there are plenty in whitbridge and Jesmond, add them into your loop. The land managers are turning a blind eye to them so you won't be hurting the hobby of mountainbiking by doing so. If you really have to ride in the conditions like we have now, ride there, you don't like whats in Glenrock now anyway, so it shouldn't bother you too much.

I must admit I get a laugh out of the concept of heavly degraded trails being a natural feature in a natural landscape. If we want it natural, we had better get cracking on closing everything and rehabilitating the place. All those eroded trails do is cause more erosion and sediment issues further damaging the environmnet further downstream. Natural.....I think not.

Maybe your right though, maybe we do need to stand at the gates in our rain coats with the NPWS and expalin to people what damage they are doing to our continued access to the park. I suspect people like yourself still won't care.

Maybe we need split the maintenance this weekend to have a prescence at the Gun Club entrance as well as the planed works to shaft.

Gee Whiz Mr Ferrett you do seem to be a little pissed off that the GTA in association with NPWS and world renowned trail builder Glen Jacobs are trying to build SUSTAINABLE trails for all of us to enjoy.
As for getting riders "better involved", I don't know what more they can do other than sustain this website, organise workdays and invite riders to attend. In fact Mr Ferrett, why don't you start the ball rolling amongst your group of riders and join Sammy, Empy and the boys for some trail building on the weekend. I'm sure you are going to be in the area anyway.

I think ferret head raises some valid points, but i don't think he communicates them very effectively. I think the GTA is at risk of becoming a 'grumpy old man that yells at the neighbors kids for playing on his lawn' type of organisation. Its important to understand (at least to the best of my knowledge), that the trail status lights on this website are a guide only, no one on here has the authority to close a trail in a national park. The lights here are an opinion, i have 'closed' the trails many times myself, but really all i am doing is suggesting people stay away.

There is defiantly an elitism attitude that because you put your work into it it entitles you to have authority over it. You can volunteer every remaining day of your life working on the trails in Glenrock but that doesn't make you any more in charge of the place than any other rider. DONT GET ME WRONG - i have all the respect and thanks to those who give up there time to maintain the trails, and you wont catch me out there tearing up there hard work in the wet. I think it comes down to people don't like being told what to do, so perhaps there are better ways of stopping riders in the wet rather than stomping the GTA's self righteous foot

But there is riding in the wet, and there is riding in the wet.

A few days of light rain, fine go hit the trails. There may be a few patches better left but with time people would learn where does and doesn't handle water. A few puddles here and there isn't likely to cause too much issue and really gives an idea of where minor maintenance needs to be performed. Maintenance after these days may be required, but thats what maintenance is for and hopefully with time they are tweaked to a point that maintenance is minimal.

The issue for me is going to be days like the comeing weekend where we have sunshine forecast after weeks of heavy rain. The ground is saturated, People ride and we will have bogs that widen, we will have sections that blow out, we will increase the rates of erosion. The resulting mess is beyond the relms of general maintenance for repair. That is an issue for the NPWS. As much as you seem to love the mud, I'm sure no one wants to see the return of sections like the old pallet entrance to Baileys Paddock or along the old pipe line.

The trails as they are today are beyond wet. Its not inconceivable to think it is inappropriate to ride as the conditions are at the moment even if the sun comes out.

What you are missing is that it is NPWS land and we have rules to play by, thats why the recent works are of a certain standard and design. The IMBA trail guidelines have been enforced. The trails you describe as ideal are in Whitebridge and Jesmond. When the glenrock trails are saturated like they are now, utilise the other areas.

Moving onto the maintenance crews. To be honest, I have never heard anyone comment on people riding past not contributing. I'd be pissed off if they did. I know people don't have the time to help (I struggle myself sometimes), or even just aren't inclined to help. Thats fine, thats there call and I respect that and it would be wrong of any of us to verbally abuse someone riding past. I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I have never heard it.

As for the suggestion that the GTA form a club and be given a designated area. The designated area to run amok in the park won't happen not in a national park anyway (would be awesome if it could, but being a NP, the political backlash would be massive), we can't even do that with the HMBA lease at Awaba. Same strict rules on sustainability apply there as they do in glenrock. The charter you reference would require IMBA standard trails, much the way the POM does (and for Awaba, the operational permit). So the trails that could be designed would be much as what your seeing going in now. Not the eroded technical trails you desire. Again, they exist a short hop down the fernleigh. Link that up into your ride and get the best of bith worlds.

The idea of funding trail works, thats being looked at at the moment in a serious ways, as are methods of raising funds for trail works. Whether a club needs to be formed ot not is also being considered but no opionion on that one has been formed.

End of the day, I am not agruing about riding afer a bit of rain, thats fine, go for it. My issue is with riding with the current conditions. There are other trails nearby, use them so we don't jepardise our tenure in Glenrock.

Ideally the trail status updates would do that asnd suggest which trails are suitable.

The updates last weekend did that, this one http://glenrocktrailalliance.com/node/21957 is a prime example of how the updates should be done, so I am with you on that issue.

I would really say thats what the amber light is for. Some of the park is good, other areas possibly to be avoided. Some specific trail conditions as with that link mean the park can be riden with minimal impact to the problem areas. With time people become acustomed to where is and isn't able to handle rain.

So I agree with you on that one. That really a matter of the status updates being as in depth as possible.

Realistically, though this weekend, other than the management roads I don't hink its much of a stretch to call the single trail really bloody closed.

In every sport I have ever played, cricket, footy, anything outdoors, there is a wet weather procedure. If it rains hard enough in the preceeding days to the point that the playing surface will be damaged the game is called off. Even if it is 35 degrees on the day of the game, if the ground is wet, no-one plays. Annoying but Tough Shit. I respect that a curator works all season to get a cricket pitch or playing field in good knick to play on, so it would be the height of self centredness to ignore ALL common sense and play on it regardless. To me it seems like this is just arguing for the sake of arguing. Who would want to be so disrespectful to ignore the wishes of the vast majority of riders that use Glenrock, because they feel they think they have the right to do what the bloody hell they please.....who thinks that way?

I have never been to a build day, I don't know any of the GTA guys personally, but I take my hat off to them for their efforts. I have ridden past them plenty of times and stopped and had a chat to them. Not once have I ever had a single member of the GTA be anything other than friendly and willing to have a chat about what they are doing and what is proposed to be done regarding track building/maintenance. Most of the time they ask how the track rides, if it flows and seem to listen to the comments.

Rules are rules Ferrett Head. I don't think anyone is being high and mighty about when the trails should or should not be used, all it seems to me that the GTA are trying to do is advocate common sense use of the trails so that we don't lose legal access all together.

And for the record, every rider I have spoken with, numbering in the dozens, has nothing but praise for the work done by the GTA crew, so well done on behalf of the majority.

Im not going to split hairs here, i totally agree with the gta's stance on this and i don't for a second condone ferret heads approach. The old man statement is a manner of speech, not to be taken literally
I don't think this is about the issue of riding in the wet but about the larger issue of a small group of people, the vocal minority, making big changes to a place accessed by hundreds. It can just seem a little overwhelming at times and i could connect with his feelings to some extent, that just because we don't volunteer our time we don't get a say in how things are done. Im not out to argue with anyone, i just want to make Glenrock better for everyone, not just those who have the time to pick a shovel

You would be surprised how many people don't know this site exists,i reckon i tell someone about it nearly every weekend. This has all motivated me to find the time to get along to a build day

Haydos, Im with you on that point. Absolutely, i can see that the majority may feel as though a network of trails has been created to fit within the view of a minority. Fortunately this is not the case. We have had this discussion with other interested parties before. We have even created a history thread to demonstrate why it has gone this way. I am guilty of getting fired up here, it is terribly frustrating when destructive criticism is thrown out there by people who care not to educate themselves on the point.

If we do not defend ourselves then that uneducated rant could become folklore, and it just is not the case that we have catered these trails to suit ourselves. We were given limited scope to create a sustainable network or loose the lot. Simple as that.

of trail closure & moto riders in Glenrock some of us will have to be the vocal minority to stir shit up for the protection of this place for years to come ,not just this weekend when the sun is out & the trails muddy strips!!!

I've gotta say I find ferret head's attitude disappointing. I see nothing in his posts to indicate he'll respect NPWS closures any better than unofficial stakeholder closures.

Let's be clear: the NPWS expects mountain bikers to be capable of some degree of self-regulation. They don't have time and they especially don't have the money to throw manpower at micro managing troublesome user groups. If they take a view that we're all too much trouble and starting to threaten their conservation mandate because of our bad behaviour destroying trails, they'll simply kick us out and you and your mates will have set us back 20 years.

Yes there are most definitely rules we need to live by if we're going to keep this facility. The rules are that the trails need to be sustainable. What you have in Glenrock is what sustainable trails generally look like.

People have invested many thousands of dollars of their own time, as well as the NPWS investing taxpayer money to provide this facility when they could probably MORE easily taken the attitude of Sydney NPWS land managers and simply kicked mountain bikers out.

If you don't like it, go ride somewhere else. From all accounts, it's not far to travel. Don't fuck it up for everybody else, please.

I note that Rotorua uses a similar model and local volunteer trail crews are charged with taking responsibility for maintaining the trail and policing the closure of any illegal trails that spring up in their zone. I'm guessing, but it would not surprise me if they have the authority to close trails when weather conditions required.

HA. Lovin the last 2 posts.

Look, I'm as frustrated as anyone with some attitudes in this thread, but throwing insults isn't the way. This just steels an opponents resolve.

I think there in lies the problem of the much touted MTBers policing MTBers

Yep it is annoying that some people can't see that working with the mangers of a place like glennrock and respecting their wishes is far better than deliberately working against them.

However hounding riders and handing out fines ourselves does nothing but create a "grumpy old men"/ us against them mentality that only serves to push the rogue riders further from the fold.

Once you not only loose their respect but push them to form resentment (and who doesn't resent others telling them what they can and can't do?) they go from ignorantly breaking wet weather/ illegal building rules to blantantly disregarding them. Thus we go from being a good middle man between general riders and park management to being nothing to noone.

I'm all for education and leading by example. Encouraging people to get involved with maintenance days to see for themselves why things are getting down in certain ways, but not belittling them if they choose not to.

The issue of actual enforcement should fall to the land manger who should have realistic expectation for compliance.

To continue Robs road analogy. Lets face it it's illegal to speed on the road. The statistical relationship of speed in serious crashes is overwhelming but no one is calling for a ban on cars because some people still choose to break the law by ignoring speed limits.

100% compliance is never going to happen but if the majority of people do the right thing and spread the word with out preaching from a soap box things should go a lot better.

Ferrethead, I'm not sure if the tone your posts read at is the same as you are trying to convey but surely you can see that people a passionate about legal riding in Glennrock and that for the hard work, time and dedication they have put in to pay off we need riders to think not only of their own enjoyment but of the consequences of their actions should those actions piss off the Rangers who manage the park or give ammo to those NIMBYs who like nothing more than to complain about MTBers wrecking havoc on the environment.