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Tubeless - again!


Mike_H's picture

By Mike_H - Posted on 04 January 2012

Tubeless - it's been discussed a lot and I'm thinking of giving it a go, but there's still a few things that I'm not clear on. I know there's plenty of people on here with experience of the various options, so I'm sure someone can clear things up for me.

My current setup - Maxxis Crossmark LUST tyres (ie fully tubeless) on DT Swiss 420SL rims (non tubeless)

So my questions are :-

1. What is the sealant for? Is it to seal at the bead (ie between tyre and rim) or is it to make a non tubeless tyre non-porous? Do I need it with tubeless tyres?
2. I understand that I need to use rimtape to 'seal' the spoke holes - that makes sense. But do I then need to put in a rimstrip as well, or can I just put in a tubeless valve?

Cheers

Mike

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Logan's picture

1. Sealing punctures and it also seals up the holes in porous tyres as well, so Racing Ralphs can have micro holes in them. My understanding with UST tyres you dont "need" sealant but some people run it to ensure they dont get punctures.

2. Depends on the rim, some rims are shallow and you need the rim tap and the valve, others you dont. I am using DT Swiss X1800 rims and I need to run the yellow rim tape and the rubber rim strip as well. I also had to drill out the valve a little as well, which was fairly easy to do.

Rob, can we have a FAQ list somewhere on the front page, this topic and a number of others come on a regular basis and if we could have one thread that would help perhaps?

ChopStiR's picture

You will most likely need the Rim tape. The sealant also repairs small punctures on the fly, often you won't even realise. Sealant needs to be replaced every few months.

Mike_H's picture

Not sure I understand your answer to 2

You appear to be saying that I would either use a "rimtape & separate valve" combination OR a rubber rimstrip with valve attached?

I'm assuming that the reference to shallow rims is due to the rubber rimstrip taking up space and leaving the tyre too little rim to bead to?

Although you then say that you're using rimtape AND the rimstrip. Why did you "need" to do that - or is that just a 'belt and braces' approach?

kadi1996's picture

i just did my wheels (giant s-xc 2 which are not tubeless) and im now running tubeless no problems. you need to pull the yellow sticky rim tape on as tight as possible, start 200 mm before the valve hole then finish 200 mm after the valve hole, but only go around once. i did mine in a truing stand. and where the valve hole is, with a small screwdriver put a small hole through the tape. then push the valve through (i used mavic) then you put the collar on with a little rubber o-ring inside it and so forth. and the stans sealant helps to seal the wheels if they are not tubeless rims. after you pumped your tires, give the tires a good spin because it helps seal the bead.

Logan's picture

Yeah, some rims are deeper than others, so you can run the rim strip and the rubber rimstrip with valve attachment and others you cant, its a bit trial and error to be honest.

I needed to do it, cause I couldnt get the tyres to bead properly without one or the other, so I used both and it worked. I found with my DT Swisss rims that the rubber rimstrip had to be manipulated and pushed into the rim with tyre leavers to get it to sit properly.

This is using the Stans kit which as you have talked about the yellow rimstrip I am awesome you are using. I tried the DT Kit first and it was rubbish.

Jeddz's picture

Shredded the tyre on a gutter in town today and I have found it appers to be 'stuck' to the bead. I cant get a lever or anything behind the bead. Any advice will be appreciated. Its tubeless and its on a mavic crossmax st.

pharmaboy's picture

the first thing to do get a tyre off, is to push the bead down into the centre well of the rim - sometimes that requires rim on ground, mad cyclist crouched above it, then the application of sadistic physiotherapist thumbs to bead to pop it inot the centre!

Untill thats done there is no point in trying to get a tyre lever onto it. And just wait till all the old pros start telling you you should use your fingers to get tyres on and off - take them a schwalbe USt tyre and a mavic rim and see them pull out the levers after 4 minutes of swearing

Jeddz's picture

So its gunna be hard as- ta

jeffmtb's picture

Agree with pharmaboy ,got new mavic crossmax st rims for x-mas and fitted brand new UST schwalbe rocket ron and nobby nick. bent the shit out of 2 tyre levers (both plastic).
un believably tight fit.But fitted after a bit of persistance.Will now order some steel/plastic covered tyre levers as any major drama's in the bush trying to fit a tube ,this may be a problem. Oh well whats another CRC order anyway......

Jeddz's picture

The tyre popped off the bead in seconds and I lifted it from the rim without any issue at all with my fingers. It was initially stuck but once I applied a bit of pressure.......

Is the liquid inside meant to seal a pinch flat or what is it for?

hawkeye's picture
Agree with pharmaboy ,got new mavic crossmax st rims for x-mas and fitted brand new UST schwalbe rocket ron and nobby nick. bent the shit out of 2 tyre levers (both plastic).

That's because you need three: one at each end to stop the bead from creeping off when you're not looking, and at third to stick in next to one at either end and flip a short length of bead over the rim lip incrementally.

When the third is in place, you take the second one out, put it in next to the one you just put in, flip a bit more of the bead over the rim, pull the lever next to it out, rinse and repeat until you've crept the rest of your bead over the lip.

If you reckon Schwalbe are bad on UST, try putting Conti Sport Contacts 26x1.3 commuting tyres on any 26" rim - always results in busted tyre levers, skinned knuckles, and an exploration of one's vocabulary of cuss words. It's just as well they're virtually puncture proof! Great tyres apart from that.

Jeddz's picture

After visiting a local bike shop I realized I didn't have a UST tyre at all. No wonder it came off easy. Trying to fit a UST tyre now....trying but not succeeding yet.

QuikStep's picture

I recently got some new XT M785 wheels, tried to set them up with several non-tubeless tyres I have but none would seal up so went online and got some UST Michelin Wild Race'r 2.25's.
The front went on with a tight fit with 20ml of sealant to add a little extra protection from punctures, I used a floor pump to get about 58psi in as recommended and it was done easy. On the rear I followed the exact same steps on the rear and at about 50psi from floor pump it blew off with a huge bang (had neighbours come out and see what blew up), sprayed sealant all over the garage, my face and the tyre actual hit my hand and now the tip of my middle finger is all black/blue and swollen (doesn't feel broken but might lose the nail) .

I cleaned up the rim and tyre let it dry out and tried again minus the sealant and inflated it to 40psi. It was just as hard to get on as before so it did not feel like it was stretched or any thing. It held for an hour so I popped in the bike and did a test run up and down the road, popped off a few gutters and did a few hard turns and it has stayed on.

I am nervous about using the tyre now. Anyone had any similar experiences? Has the tyre survived to live a useful life on your bike or do I ditch it for a new one?

hawkeye's picture

SYep, I've spray-painted the garage with sealant too LOL! The fingers hurt like I'd just got caned by Mr Wheeler for flicking that annoying girl with a rubber band on the bus, but no bruising fortunately.

The tyre lived another 1,100km or so before a rock took a chunk out of the sidewall, and it died a couple of weeks later at the very end of Long Trail.

Suggest you wear protective glasses when mounting UST tyres: I do. Sometimes it takes quite high pressures to get the bead to "pop" into position properly.

QuikStep's picture

Thanks for that, I will give the tyre a go and make the most of it.

Being a natural four eyes I had the specs on which was lucky, but I now need to work out how to clean the glasses, side of the car and other bikes with damaging them. Any advice on getting the latex out of leg and arm hair? I am peeling everywhere and I am not sunburnt!

hawkeye's picture

It might be the time to channel your inner roadie and simply give it a good pull. You can finish off with Veet wax strips which my daughter tells me are quite good. Get the shaved leg look going... Eye-wink

As for the other stuff in the garage, a but of a rub with the fingertips should see it peel off.

Cotic Tony's picture

I've only experienced this with some old tubeless jobs that had been on & off a few times. Once it had blown the bead was stuffed and it was only fit for the bin.
I dont blame you for being nervous, 'mine deafened me for a few mins, maybe your pump gauge is out.
As for pressure, anything much over 40psi is excessive imho. When I'm fitting USTs I set my compressor cut out at 50 (Big tank) and let it flow to seal the tyre, bash it around a bit then leave it for a while (hour/day) then go down to about 35F 40R to ride. Most of the time I actually let a bit more out.
BTW. I fitted new Schwalbes and a friends Conti's the other day to Crest rims. F ing tight!
Rgds T

DudeistPriest's picture

I've just fitted tubless tyres for the first time, had the shop put them on, however, for me to do it myself, do you think I'll need to by a compressor or are there hand pumps out there that can get the job done?

pharmaboy's picture

much cheaper than a compressor is a co2 cannister - $20 for a valve/holder and a

DudeistPriest's picture

Ok so CO2 cartridges will do the trick then, which is good as that's what I use when I have to reinflate on the trail.

Cheers

daveh's picture

While you can use a CO2 canister to help seal to bead, it's recommended against using it to inflate tyres with sealant in them. Apparently it reacts with the sealant to make it less effective or even forming into a solid ball. After using thew CO2, you'd need to let the CO2 out and then use a floor pump or a compressor. I have tubeless on all my bikes, have only ever used a floor pump and have never had any real issues.

hawkeye's picture

I use a compressor, as I first started using non-UST tyres. $99 from super cheap auto. You can spend more on a track pump.

Fatboy's picture

Some rims are just a nightmare to get tyres on and off while others are simple.

I think all of the Stan's rims (definitely the ZTR Olympics) have a V-shaped profile so when you get your tyre on it sits in the middle or deepest part of the rim. As you pump with a normal floor pump the tyre bead slides up the V until it locks against the rim. I always pump to 50psi to make sure I get a perfect seal and then reduce the pressure.

Other rims can range from tricky to nightmare. A few months ago I received my new red anodised 1200ish gram race wheels (at the right price - I'd add one of those pictures of a face winking but don't know how) that matched the red anodised parts all over my bike. They looked schmick! It was 2 days before race day. I couldn't get them to seal so tried the service station thing. Most service stations have those set the psi and they blow, stop, blow... absolutely useless as the tyre starts to inflate then deflates. Inflates, deflates...aaaaargh! I tried a heap of CO2 canisters to no avail. I then drove half way around Sydney to find a service station with the old hold the trigger and pump air hoses. Even then I only got one tyre up. Once it sealed it was fantastic. I then tried putting a tube in the other and pumping it to 50psi to seal the tyre then take the air out, break the bead on one side to remove the tube and then theoretically I'd have success. NOT!!!

So after wasting God knows how much time, effort, sealant, CO2, skin off knuckles from punching things etc I ended up competing that weekend with a tube in my rear tyre. I then took the wheels back and said I just don't get on well with U-shaped rims then went and spent a lot more money getting a new set built at TWS. Shame the new ones are black and don't look as sexy but damn they are easy to get tyres on and off and work beautifully with a floor pump!

goosehead's picture

I have just bought a new set of Schwalbe fat alberts and am trying to fit them to a XT rim set. Been trying for about half a day now and I just seem to be pumpin more air into the... air. I have a track pump but it is not getting me any where and I have Presta valves but no tool for removing them so I can't use my compressor. I have also tried soapy water to make them seal easier but nothing is working at the moment. Does anyone have some tips or pointers or should I just go to the LBS?

cambowambo's picture

FWIW my suggestion is to get a strap or length of rope and wrap it around the outside of the tyre. Then use a tyre lever or something to twist the strap tighter, so as to compress the centreline of the tyre inwards a bit towards the rim. Don't go crazy with this, just put enough pressure to let the tyre spread out inside the rim.

Then pump hard and fast (compressor is best) and the tyre should pop into the rim and seal.

I used to do this way back in the days when I had to change motocross tyres. I've found it also works for MTB.

For me it works more than 50% of the time - your mileage might very depending on rims, tyres and luck. You may need to have a couple of goes at it.

NB: watch out the twisty tyre lever doesn't spring back and bite you.

VTSS350's picture

You guys are smoking crack if you think XC tyres are hard to get on!

I have an anthem, reign and Intense M9. Downhill tyres are way harder to put on than any XC tyre.

And for the record I have never used a tyre lever to put any tyre on any rim!

There are tricks to anything you just need to know how to do it!

whiskers's picture

try this put a tube blow the tyre up till it beads (bang) gently take one side of the tyre of...(oh wait you cant remove the valve)go to the bike shop dood

Oldernslower's picture

similar to cambowambo - except I use a ratchet tie down similar to the ones used to tie mocycles down. Wrap around the tyre, tighten strap so squeezes tyre, check that the bead is is even both sides, then pump - used this for some time on many tyres and found it works with a floor pump fine. Once you have pressure slowly release the tie down and put more air in, continue until bead is seated. That is unless using some Schwalbe tyres (RR) which were so pourous the sidewalls leaked.

It also helps to use wide rim tape rather than stans narrow yellow tape, that way the bead has a low grip surface to slide on.

HTH

suarez's picture

I haven't had any problems with tubeles at all.
Normally tyres are easy to put on, but when they are new I use soap with water on the edge of the tyre and it fits like a glove.

Also to mention that I have used


http://youtu.be/WRM7gq1fcoQ

(handmade ghetto tubeless) and it works great.

Cheers,
Jose

pharmaboy's picture

"You guys are smoking crack if you think XC tyres are hard to get on!"

BS! - I had a schwalbe i was trying to get on a mavic rim - took it to a bikeshop on a day when the a well known mechanic was on - smart character - "never ever ever use tyre levers, thumbs, get it into the well, blah blah blah" - 30minutes it took him - and he used tyre levers (perhaps the first 25minutes was been a stubborn legend trying to do it by hand) - came back quite meek.

The other difficult combo is the new crest's with the tight fit 2012 schwalbe's - they have a cut down rim depth - so the depth of the well is correspondingly shallower - its also a narrow well, so you would have to get one side up and onto the bead in order to sink the bead you are mounting into the well to give you the couple of mm you need.

browny's picture

Agree with above. The first TLR Ralphs I mounted on my Crests were so incredibly tight that I thought I'd never get them off, especially trail side.

Cannot imagine these could have been fitted by hand. Would have to see it to believe it.

goosehead's picture

Hey I never said anything about them being harder than DH tires. Pretty sure I said it was my first time.

I ended up taking them to the LBS but there compresor was out and they whereno real help.set and

I ended up taking them to work the next and use the aircompressor there and an adaptor. The first one sealed up pretty easy as the goop was half set and helped form a seal and the beads popped on. The second I ranout of time at lunch but had the goop in so at K/O it provided enough seal to pop them on. I pumped them upto 60psi and took them home. At home I lowered them to 35 and went for a spin around the block the pumped them back up to 60. The next day they where lower in the morning and by the afternoon one was flat and the other was down about 30psi. I pumped them up overnight and this morning they where about 40 and I pumped them up again and went for a little longer ride. Hopefully now the seal is better set and I don't have the same problems.

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