You are hereGlenrock State Conservation Area update for 10 Mar

Glenrock State Conservation Area update for 10 Mar


......'s picture

By ...... - Posted on 10 March 2012

NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.
Status: 
Red/Closed

Some spots are drying nicely. Some are horrible. If you know the trails well you cam link together a decent amber ride using firetrail double barrel snakes and ladder fire road up to bjs it happens (skip shaft) and back up snakes and ladders.

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......'s picture

So, A better description of a suitable route would be.

double Barrel.
Turn right onto fire trail at twisties intersection.
head left towards snakes and ladders.
At bottom of snakes and ladders tern left
head towards Baileys Trail.
turn right onto high roller
go down BJ's
up it happens
down sewage treatments road (shaft may be ok today (Sunday))
then it's up to you,

head back up snakes and ladders
or
go hang ten to head lands then along yulerbah
back up snakes and ladders.

Plenty of riding to be had in there

Some of baileys is boggy, but it is a fire trail no worries there

yulerbah has some boggy spots as well

big dipper will be messy as well (havn't seen it myself but history tells)

Kenny's is flogged. People have been riding it wet for months now, and it is starting to show.

Bailey's Paddock is a mess. Again the messy parts are fire trail and open paddock, howver they are so bad you could end up lost in a hole.

richo's picture

Thanks for that refresh....but after spending two hour cleaning my bike i'll give it a few more days....might be time to turn the old h/t into a s/s me thinks

......'s picture

yep, i agree. the fire trails are very wet. this suggested route takes you on the drier singletrack, but yes, your bike will get flogged.

......'s picture

rode that loop twice today Came back with very muddy tester bikes. 90% of the mud was from yulerbah. i would be giving the loop i have suggested here a green for sure.

fat stacks's picture

Been out this evening on your suggested loop. Very cool and great trail conditions including Shaft. Felt guilty descending Snakes and Ladders though Smiling Great to hit the trails. I'm not sure whether a status change is called for just yet though. I suspect Kennys and Baileys Paddock will need a few more dry, sunny days before being close to rideable.

Empy's picture

I think you must have misunderstood the directions.

As active members of the GTA we could not condone riding trails in the reverse direction - Especially in less than ideal trail conditions.

After all the very reason trails like Snakes and Ladders drain so well is because they are managed in this way to reduce undesirable impact.
If we were all to start riding down this trail it would soon become the rutted poorly draining mess that we see on other trails.
Snakes is not built to withstand the impact that descending riders cause. Not to mention the obvious concern of riders coming the other way.

So like it or not the directions are for a reason.

A quick look at the suggested loop and adjoining management trails shows plenty of options where you can still ascend Snakes.

fat stacks's picture

Gee mate, thanks for the clarification. Maybe if the directions in the original post were a little clearer I would not have made this error. You also assume I went tearing down s&l without a care for the trail. Far from it, actually. Less attitude & assumptions and some helpful clarifications would be a better starting point. Maybe you should re-read the post is from refreshingly and you might see where I went wrong.

Lenny_GTA's picture

Id prefer not to see people riding down Snakes and Ladders as well. Taking aside the conflict issues, the sustainability of that trail when descending in the wet is of concern to me.

Given the well documented issues in the wet that Kenny's has, this really highlights the need for an alternate descent. Currently we have two ways onto Gun Club Road (Snakes and Ladders, and Easy Way Out), Kenny's is the only exit. If we can get a well constructed trail in, no matter how short, that gets from Gun Club Road down to the management trails, it opens a lot more up in the wet.

I know NPWS won't like it, but using the top of the DH trail ""Garden Path", then cutting across to the main fire road descent to the bottom is not a bad option in the wet. The single trail at the top drains well, is more than fun to ride (unless you fall at the entrance at super slow speed) and could be an easy solution to link to the bottom. With a new bit of appropriately built single trail at the bottom, you would have a nice descent.

Empy, perhaps we need to raise this issue again. I know the response will be that we need a POM amendment, but this may well be a feasible solution given the top of the trail is there, doesn't need any major works and would serve the purpose very well. As a bonus, we don't need to construct an entire trail as would be needed in the two solutions put forward at the end of Gun Club Road.

People got thoughts on this?

Lenny_GTA's picture

@fat stacks, I don't think the assumption was that you went tearing down it, more a concern about what would happen if large numbers of people rode in that direction. I don't disagree on the directions, but describing a route in words is pretty hard without a map. Understanding the directions even harder.

I'm going to post a social ride shortly, we can all put a name to faces.

fat stacks's picture

Or better still, we can put faces to names when I'm helping out on Saturday with trail maintenance Smiling

Lenny_GTA's picture

I'll be the one leaning against a shovel doing nothing,

pharmaboy's picture

I would be happy to have snakes and ladders as continuing as a single direction only, but we/you/NPWS also have to be realistic and practical. The trail that is damaged during the wet is kenny's - the trail that is seemingly impervious to wet weather is snakes and ladders - they both link up to shaft which fairs pretty damn well in the wet.

If we get overly precious about the direction, then kenny's will be used more and more - that couldnt possibly be more of a lose, lose.

I have never seen someone riding snakes and ladders quickly - its very hard to ride like that because its been designed that way - the top particularly is guaranteed off into the bushes if any attempt to go quick is taken.

We already have one way signs of a sort, I would add maybe some signs like "uphill trail surface - please dont skid" followed by another sign 100m later that says - "good riders dont skid - thankyou for your co-operations, GTA" or something.

Lenny_GTA's picture

The Kenny's issue is exactly why we need the second trail off Gun Club Road.

The Garden Path option I describe brings you out at leicharts lookout so there is a bit of a pedal on the management trail to get to the headland, but I don't think that's an issue.

The other option would be adjacent to Snakes and Ladders. As you ride to the start the trail would move away to the south and follow the mesh fence, then drop a few short switchbacks under the powerlines to the manegement trail below. This option has had the in principle support of NPWS, perhaps the time has come to pursue it.

Until we get the second route off Gun Club Road, people will ride down Snakes and Ladders in the wet.

Richie's picture

Lunchtime ride today:

Down The Shaft, out to picnic table via management trail and Hang Ten (where large snack exited track in front of me) and then back and up Snakes and ladders onto Gun Club road and home via Pacific Hwy.

Except for a few damp patches in the low areas of The Shaft the track was really dry. Not sure I want to be riding along Pacific Hwy again but wanted to avoid the mud back across the top (Kennys), was a hot day and the snake spooked me a little as I was riding alone.

I would have been happy to do laps of The Shaft but Hunter Water signs state no access for unauthorized vehicles on the sewer works tar road?? Is there any other way to do shaft without riding part of this road?? Are people just ignoring the signage.

Thoughts/Suggestions

pharmaboy's picture

anything that adds some network will have me there with bells on a couple of trails would make a nice carott approach given trail closures this year - there still must surely be an option of Baileys walking trail linking up to reload or the quarry as well - especially with all that terraced land with the macadamia nut trees - there must be close to a 3 or 4 k addition available?

as it is, the fireroad is a shocker in the wet.

Lenny_GTA's picture

@ Richie, I was of the understanding that bikes/pedestrians are fine on the bitumen road, just don't go into the sewer works. Cars on the other hand are a no go. A loop t that end could be Shaft, up Baileys Trail (or if its really wet It Happens), along high roller (or BJ's) Seuss Land and back to shaft.

What sort of Snake was it?

Lenny_GTA's picture

@pharmaboy, we can all go and have a look on saturday at option B. I don't think (emphasis on think) it would be a massive job to hand build, just need to get the final OK off NPWS.

If we really nut something out, take that to NPWS it would help a lot. The bonus with that corridor is you could signpost it so that people looking to descend Snakes and Ladders would be directed onto the descent.

pharmaboy's picture

Those signs have been there for a year now, given that anybody who has ridden shaft in the last year, has to ride down 200m of the no unauthorised access road in order to access shaft - i'd say its been ignored by cyclists, anyway. get run down by a ute though dont go whinging to your lawyer OK? Eye-wink

Ash C's picture

Does anyone recall that there are/were some switchbacks that criss-crossed the easement dropping down from the begining of Seismic to Hang Ten. The actual turns were in the bush on each side of the cleared area. I recon its been 7 years since I rode them, may be worth a look.

Lenny_GTA's picture

We have spoken to NPWS about those ones. They weren't keen on it even though the lower part of the single trail still exists.

Option B is a complete new trail, but completely within a power line easement which the NPWS have less issues with.

We have discussed this easement before, trying to find the thread but I can't seem to find it. Hopefully I can and I will post a link.

......'s picture

i made the suggestion for a particular reason, and i would do it again.

We had a PR nightmare with a GTA "member" being aggressive towards the general riding public, and we had an exceptionally large number of riders in the park after a great deal of rain.

I thought it best to suggest a loop that minimized the damage to the area as stopping people riding altogether is just not going to happen.

We must remember a very important point.

the GTA is not an authority here. All we are is a bunch of people that get together to build trails and maintain them. We are not an organized group. We do not have a charter of membership, nor a code of conduct, as such, there is actually no such thing as "membership".

We have no authority here.

We have no right to dictate how the park should be used, nor do we have a moral high ground or platform to stand upon to preach to others. '

The route i suggested is a good route. The alternative to using S&L as a DH is to recommend one of the illegal DH lines.

This is all getting a little bit silly.

But what we do have is the right to make a suggestion that we feel is warranted on the day.

Lenny_GTA's picture

I've contacted NPWS about option B. We have spoken about it before and there was some level of support for using the easement. I've asked to clarify if the POM needs to be amended to use the powerline easement. If it does't we can push to get in there ASAP.

I think a hand built trail in there is possible similar to the bottom sections of BJ's. It shouldn't take too many build days to get it in once/if we get the go ahead.

As everyone has noted, the crux of the issue is Bailey's Swamp. Its wet, will stay like this for the foreseeable future and is the only way off the Gun Club Ridge if you follow the network. This is the issue we need to resolve with NPWS. We have had the discussions in the past, but for whatever reason haven't taken the discussions to fruition. We need to this time.

I agree that we don't have authority to set rules in the park, but I don't think weve ever done that. The issue as I see it to recommending using Snakes and Ladders as a wet weather descent is that it then blurs the line about the directional signage, or even riding trails that aren't on the POM. I think these are decisions that individuals need to make for themselves. Recommending it on here may encourage others who wouldn't to give it a crack.

As you say we can't tell people not to do something, but if we want the POM and network to succeed we need to be seen to doing or at least trying to do the right thing. Much as I don't ride the south anymore, I won't ride down Snakes and Ladders. Call it moral high ground (I don't) but for me I feel to be able to talk to NPWS with a straight face I have to tow the line. Not being able to access elvis rock to sit and watch the world kills me, but I still don't go there. Thats me though, everyone is different.

People are going to ride the trails in what ever direction they want to, that is an individuals decision. But I do question recommending it or putting the thought into peoples heads.

In a sense it is nice we are having these teething issues with the network given where we have come from though, so I take all of this with a grain of salt. At the end of the day all it is, is ironing out the kinks in the network, Give it a few years and we will wonder what these discussions were all about.

Richie's picture

Think it was a red belly black snake - it was a large one whatever type it was.

Thanks for the clarification on the Sewer Rd.......won't feel so guilty riding it now.

I'll give your loop suggestion a go. Haven't been down/up Baileys Trail - although I think it's the trail I used to ride as a teenager some 15+ years ago.

Lenny_GTA's picture

For a management trail, I find it awesome both up and down. Taken lots of skin off on that one getting the corners wrong on the way down and it just hurts to climb.

I'll keep an eye out for red bellies.

JAKE1's picture

I would once upon a time ride where and in which direction I liked, but the guys here are developing a better trail network that I enjoy riding, and we should do what we can to make it better ie. build an alternative wet weather route and follow the direction signs.

fat stacks's picture

Mate, some good points, particularly about being able to talk to NPWS with a straight face. Obviously the long term sustainability and access to the trail network is a priority. This will be difficult to secure if we take the "anything goes" approach in our use of the trails. I agree with you that having a discussion about this is healthy for the future direction and planning of the area. If my admitting to descending S&L via a post last night has sparked this vigorous discussion, then great. However, as I said in my PM to you earlier Lenny, my issue earlier this evening was with the way "an active GTA member" got up on his high horse about this rather than posting in a constructive way. As I also said, this doesn't help the GTA cause as far as attracting new members or trail building helpers. I'm all for vigorous, respectful discussion, but not cheap, online put downs. After all, aren't we all trying to ensure the same thing- ongoing access to a great trail network so we can enjoy getting out on our mtbs? I look forward to meeting you guys Saturday for some maintenance work and to explore some of the potential new descending trail options you have described.

Empy's picture

I think. Hey Fat Stacks I didn't assume you went "tearing" down S&L I noted you said you felt guilty.
As has become evident you followed the directions correctly. I am not blaming you for that.

My post was aimed more at others who might feel that this was a loop that was supported by the GTA as a whole and an attempt to reduce the already excessive number of riders going that way.

As members or participants in the GTA process we have a duty to at least try to do the right thing.

As Sammy has said it's not always what we as individuals want.

It's what is seen by the majority to be best for the park as a whole.

In this particular case, as I mentioned, the trail direction is for a very good reason - to reduce damage to that trail.
And I fail to see the logic in saying we will trash that one because the other one is already trashed!

Back to the alternative route, there are already many options to use the management trails. There are two easements with access from Gun Club rd. to the Yuelarbah Management trail, there is also the Fernleigh Fire trail (you have to use Big Dipper for two of these which will be wet but until it's rebuilt is of no consequence to us).
If you have to back-track a bit then so be it, to get a ride at all in poor conditions is a bonus.
Then there are all the others already suggested.

The signs on the Treatment Works road are a joke, the work finished about 6 months ago but they never removed the signs. If they want them to be taken seriously they need to keep it up to date.

The alternatives as suggested by Lenny all have their problems, I've been out with the NPWS ranger and field officers to inspect both versions of option B. Both sides of the power line easement that runs to the Scout Camp that is.
The one to the north as Lenny says is not acceptable to the NPWS because to make it work would mean going too far off the easement, it's just too steep otherwise.
The one to the south, the first option B, has it's own problems. Firstly the top is nearly a cliff and then under that is a very flat wet, water course area. In my opinion for what it would take to build it would not be worth it.

Empy's picture

PS; You can descend the north side of 'option B' (Top of Seismick straight towards the treatment works) now, as it is.

When the ruts get too big maybe they'll bulldoze it again.

Lenny_GTA's picture

Maybe we should have a look at Option B as a group on the weekend.

As long as we can get a sustainable line to the bottom I think it's worth pursuing.

......'s picture

I still hold that the right thing to do was suggest the loop that i suggested Empy. The "right" thing to do is a fairly arbitrary point really. Again, i think we are assuming that our influence is greater than it is.

Lets stick to what we do which is build em and maintain them.

Again, we had a very serious PR problem over the weekend. A member of the riding public felt threatened by a GTA "member". 2 other riders i have spoken to confirmed the claims.

I think that this occurred for many reasons, however i feel that the major contributing factor is an over inflated sense of responsibility, and importance.

Relax. appreciate that there is an alternate view and get over it.

browny's picture

It has always seemed obvious to me that there needs to be a descending option from GCR.

The trail I have used quite a lot is an old piece of single track that starts at the corner of the first easement/fire trail on GCR and heads down diagonally, coming out at the top of Big Dipper. I'm not sure if this is 'Garden Path' which I think is a bit further along, but I could well be wrong as the exact names of the DH stuff hasn't really been of much interest.

Its not in the POM and would need some work, but is it an option worth considering?

......'s picture

yep. That's garden path. The top section is a nicely designed little opioece of singltrack, but the bottom part is a dogs breakfast

Empy's picture

And their access trails (in the Northern Zone) are in the PoM for our use.

The creation of dedicated singletrack is separate thing, but not completely out.

Empy's picture

The last time I did the site inspection with NPWS the second easement to the south off GC rd. was slated for a signpost directing walkers and/or riders 'To The Beach', there was to be another pointing east where the easement hits the lower Management trail(at the cliff).
This was to be done in an effort to direct walkers and riders away from S&L, so far this has not been done.

Also of relevance - there is a lack of 'X' or wrong way signs on approach to S&L from the top. The one on GC rd. now nearly completely overgrown and same for the turn into Siesmick.
Riders following the GC ridge trails are almost led by default to the top of S&L with very little obvious alternative.

browny's picture

Thanks Refresh.

If that one is Garden Path, can someone tell me the name of first DH trail after the second easement?

I have three listed there as 'Garden Path', 'Gap Creek' and 'Dippers' which I took from some old maps.

EDIT: A picture says a 1000 words. These are the trails I'm referring to.

......'s picture

not sure that one has a name Browny

Empy's picture

We mostly called it "The Berms", that was fairly common.
I think I have heard it called something else but can't think of it now.

Just had to edit;

The one you have cicled is Garden Path, the one you show as 'Garden Path' is what I would call 'The Berms'

pharmaboy's picture

the one circled in that map,starts about 10m off gunclub,has no berms on it, no turns to speak of and generally heads straight down the slope. Berms is one of the early names for garden path. garden path is recognisable because when it starts it is like single track for the first 100m or so before it starts going down the hill and has maybe 5 berms. curently garden path also has an exit to the right before it gets steep and rutted, that gives an exit to the top of the cliff just down from easy way out.

garden path by my understanding has its entry just near 6 shooters - so if you take the six shooters trail, you come out turn right along gunclub and immediately turn left onto ss which is berms/garden path.

The un named path circled is the dodgiest trail ever - has no redeeming features at all (i know i happened to ride it yesterday ;(

Empy's picture

Are wrong, as he says he wasn't sure. That's why he's asking.

Empy's picture

All these trails being discussed are not included in the NPWS PoM or in the 'supported network'.

See the thread 'Wet Weather Riding' for discussions on the trails that are 'Leagal' to ride.

Lenny_GTA's picture

When I rode DH starting in about 2000, the trail named the garden pat on the map was what we always called the garden path. I'd call the map correct.

Never seen an name for the other trails.

The exit pharmacy talks about is the exit I would like to see eventually kept. The top of the trail down to that exit functions really well. Would be nice to keep it. For now though I'd like a serious look at option B as we need something at the end go Gun Club Road to get people down.

Empy's picture

I do agree about 'option B', Lenny. We need something and not just for wet weather but try and direct people away from descending S&L, I think we discussed this before,?.. Can't find the thread.

Anyway perhaps 'Option B' needs it's own thread.

browny's picture
Empy's picture

Although it fizzeled much the same as the talks with NPWS.

I'll go to the new thread for discussions.

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