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National Parks interest in this site
Hi all,
I took a call from a national parks ranger recently, noting to us that some of the trails marked on this site were 'illegal' trails.
He has requested a meeting with Robin and I. I also spoke at length today to Adam from Club Mud, who has also spoken to National Parks.
The issue at the moment seems to be that there is a lot of direction coming down to close trails, with zero community input (in my humble opinion).
All those that would like to say their piece say 'Aye'... Ok, my eardrums just broke.
Robin and I will meet with National Parks in a couple of weeks, probably to be told about what trails should be ridden and not. We can only represent ourselves, however are more than happy to bring National Parks messages back to the site for the community.
Once this meeting has been held, I think that the community should as a group think about what we want to do as Mountain Bikers for recreation. I'd suggest we do this as a series of polls or open topics, here on NoBMoB.
And an open message - this is a community site. If there is anything that National Parks wants to post about ANY of the trails on this site, well the sign-up link is on the left and we're more than happy to have you involved here!
Also, if you represent a group of riders, or even just yourself, then please note your interest in this topic by posting in this thread.
Edit: I would just like to note, as it has been pointed out to me in a private message; "take a pair of rose coloured glasses to this topic and hope that, whilst they might request that some of the trails be removed from the map pages, there is a brighter side to it. They are looking for community input into legitamising some trails and maintaining them"
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Well that's nice of this Ranger person for pointing out that some of the rides are illegal. We already know that, like Red Hill, etc. But NPWS do not signpost some places that you can't ride - like Red Hill. Anyway, whatever.
Maybe we should suggest that riders should do some more to maintain these illegal tracks. Make them more sustainable. Would they be happy for riders to get involved with that process, like we do for Manly Dam?
I doubt they are interested in Red Hill as it's on Crown Land.
As Justin says, this is a community site, if someone from NPWS wants to sign up and point things out that are illegal we can do our best to change any maps, etc. We try and play nice with them best we can.
Let's wait and see what these folk have to say before guessing at that. We'll let you know.
red hill isn't illegal - we have been through this before - it's half crown land and half church land.
the NWPS really get me irritated - they say we can't ride bikes, horses, trail bikes or sometimes even walk in the bush but then they turn around and decimate an area and bulid more houses - it's just a joke - plus i do believee the rangers cruise about in the bush in four wheel drives...
not only that the government run campaigns saying people are getting too fat and obese and then they try to close areas for people to get outside and do stuff... i could just go on and on but I am sure you get the drift!!
Well done Christine, the rider's saviour.
I could easily imagine the red mist decending as you wrote that post. Funny!
still hasn't cleared!
i shall have to go up the road and get food to recover - not a latte though.. don't want to start any rumours...
We live in this huge great big country with probably more outdoor area than anywhere and a lot of it seams to be off limits.
and everyone knows what mine is like...but the percentage allowed for horse riding is 3%... i guess it's larger for bikes but still silly
Liam is right, they should be maintaining trails not closing them...
are the perfect post-ride beverage while dressed in lycra to discuss how to keep bikes above the UCI weight limit of 6.8kg.
They are also great at a rugby league match if you happen to follow a certain team. And no, that team isn't Manly despite what the ground announcer might say.
I'm surprised that some of the rides on this site are NPWS illegal, because I know Rob is a strong advocate of only riding "legal" tracks.
If the NPWS boys can keep us up-to-date on the legal tracks that would be a plus. At the same time they may also be able to provide information on other legal tracks around Sydney/NSW that we don't know about.
As requested in the post I'd be keen to add my voice / efforts in reaching a suitable solution to all stakeholders - may be worth finding out the hierarchy or state dept that the national parks are controlled by and start there should your meeting not yield a common sense result.
Further to what Paul has said, which would be great, I think there is strong support from the members here in active trail maintenance programs, such as the recent Manly Dam trail day which was well over-subscribed!
they make a nice latte & you could hang out with all your roadie friends
As usual, we must rely on hearsay, as we do for the faceless and nameless poo pooing of mountain biking as a recreation.
It's easier to say no to mountain biking, and it's easier to be fat than fit.
Type 3 diabetes explosion and bigger childs seats for a lazy population.
As a society, we get what we deserve.
And I just spent over $100 on a 2 year park pass as I like to support the NPWS whenever I can.
But phone calls regarding illegally posted trails. Why wouldn't you guys put up a post and let us all know??
If I read this 2 weeks ago, I wouldn't have bothered with the pass. Would've spent it on my bike instead.
Like you, Christine, I could carry on all day about this. But it's just so infuriating.
re-edit: OK, I don't regret buying the pass. But let's hope something comes of all this.
PS. There are a lot of people, myself included, who missed out on the dam maintenence who would love the opportuniy to maintain trails.
Andy, I don't know what those trails are, and the point was made immediately to NPWS that NPWS were welcome to sign up and post themselves as to what is legal / illegal to use for mountain biking, as I have just done again in another email I have sent them letting them know about this thread:
"I would like to remind you that you can sign-up and post directly on the site, and post against each map and directly inform the riders what should and should not be ridden. I cannot suggest anything else that would achieve a quicker result (of getting the NPWS message out) to the Nobmob community."
Also, see the numerous posts calling for a conservative approach when looking for somewhere to ride in the wet and the number of times when people recommend "illegal" trails via a thread it is quickly pointed out to them that we should not be on those trails.
And I'm a Pom so I know whingeing, and there's a lot of it in this thread and it gives me the sh1ts. Clearly some people don't have the highest opinion of NPWS but like it or not they are a fact of what we do and we have to deal with them in a positive fashion, however we are dealt with. Dealing with MTB'ers isn't all they do and if we're not rational and civil in how we deal with them we give all MTB'ers a bad name. A lot of more organised MTB'ers are putting effort into dealing positively with NPWS and the least we can do is not sabotage their efforts.
Reactionary whingeing does nobody any favours, is it any wonder that NPWS don't sign up when they get slated here by people who've likely never had any direct contact with anone from NPWS? Even if it turns out to be true we can't assume that they have negative intentions WRT mountain biking, we have to look upon this as a positive opportunity for dialogue and a chance for us to continue to be responsible in our environment.
For my, admittedly underinformed, 2c. I think it would be great to have someone from NPWS posting on the site to share their pespective in a friendly and cooperative fashion, and if that happens all of us should make every effort to be understanding and civil.
I'm sure Rob and Justin can represent us well, one thing I would mention though, with alchemist being preso of MWMTB his experience and/or involvement in any discussion might be a distinct advantage.
Thanks,
Matt.
but if you are referring to me as having nothing to do with the NWPS I have been on committees dealing with them and am also a member of active groups who are trying to keep the trails open not just for bike riders but for all recreational people...
..and yes, I was a pom too...
I will be very interested in learning what criteria the NPWS (or any governing body) is using in making trails legal and illegal.
This year bike sales overtook car sales for the first time. That in excess of 1,000,000 units.
Impact of cycling
At an event such as the recent Ourimbah 8.25 hour event there were 400 riders and lets say they averaged 6 laps of 10Km. That is a total of 24000Km total cycling Km's in just one day and the impact on the land was negligable.
Understandibly there is a sustainability issue that needs to be investigated.
As a single bike track is only ever about 2M in width as wear and tear takes place the natural progression is to ride around the problem area. As the new area becomes the A line, the old area is regenerated. I think we riders are pretty good at taking care of the environment.
Why is it the more popular something gets the more restrictions are placed on that activity?
Craig
And I did almost point that out in what I wrote, but forgot ;-} I stand by what I wrote though, even if you've had poor experience previously you have to hope for the best and deal with them positively.
More importantly, you're a Pom! You could've knocked me down with a feather
So the ute and one arm tan are a reaction against the mother country, paging Dr. Freud...
the two dogs hanging off the back of the ute...
I agree with Matt. Lets look on this as a positive until such a time as we are shown otherwise, should that occur.
I am not aware of NPWS approaching any other community forums to open dialogue about trail access, although I could well be wrong on that front. I for one think if it was just a stick wielding exercise to have mapped trails removed from the site this would not need to be done with a face to face meeting.
I also echo Liam's comments re putting my hand up to volunteer for trail maintenance on NPWS controlled land should that opportunity be offered to us.
Good luck guys
Well said Matt!
We do live in an incredibly busy area, society these days tells us to whinge and fight for what we believe in. But the whole reason why I started hanging out here was that we are friendly, look after each other, take the pi&*^&* out of each other. (boy do we take the pi*& out of each other)
You guys have volunteered a lot for trail maintenance (which i still need to do) lets extend our friendliness to the NPWS and see if we can increase the understanding between our two groups such that they don't have to worry about a reactionary approach even if they do sign up and start posting.
Because this is a public forum for MTB lets not give them (or anyone else) another excuse to curtail our activities.
Put me down to help where needed... within reason of course
Andrew
But no-one is any the wiser as to where these illegal trails are.
Just more naughty MTBer talk which I would think we're all tired of.
That's why I dropped my usual sunny disposition.
The majority of “damage” to any trail is erosion.
Steep sections of trails form ruts caused by fast flowing run off water, well placed logs half buried and at an angle can work the same way as erosion mounds do on fire trails.
The other erosion problem is the inability for low points on the trails to drain; a well constructed and maintained gutter would solve that problem (similar to what has been used on the sniggle trails in Wingello).
These issues could be easily remedied by holding trail maintenance days in OUR National Parks.
It is worth noting that the origin of most trails is not by humans but well worn wombat and kangaroo tracks through the bush, humans just wandered on in for a look.
I own a 4WD and an all parks pass which gets a fair work out. I stick to the marked trails and behave myself.
I just don’t understand why, rather than closing trails down because they are looking a bit shoddy, we can’t look after them so we can all enjoy the beautiful bush that we have, and there is a lot of it. Wasn’t soil preservation one of the reasons the timber walkways (north shore) came about in America?
If we can have trail maintenance days for our Manly Dam, what harm is there in doing the same for Oxford Falls? It’s all for the better.
Greg
The DECC's (Formerly NPWS) cycling policy (which was due for review in 2005) states that cycling is not permitted on "Walking Trails" (interpreted as Single track)unless specifically allowed in a particular parks Plan of Management.
This means any single track that crosses land falling in the DECC durestriction is a no go for bikes unless it is stated otherwise in the POM for that land. A little birdie tells me that the cycling policy may finally get a review (although this maybe internal only)
As I've said before sites such as this are monitored for talk concerning illegal trails and anti NP talk...
Things have come a long way since the ban them first/us against them mentality where NP/MTB co operation was seen by the cynical as thinly veiled schemes to con MTBers into closing and policing MTB trail use themself.
Nowdays many of the rangers on the ground are pro cycling and great to work with but it is still an uphill battle to change the views and directions being handed down from the top ranks.
This meeting and opening up of communication could well be a positive. My guess is, with the recent happenings at oxford falls and the restricted access to the XC loop, it could be about that. Keep us posted.
Even if all this is about is removing maps of illegal tracks, we wouldn't have a moral leg to stand on, if we do have maps of illegal tracks then we're encouraging their use. None of us can argue that MTB'ing doesn't damage trails and there are only a small number of trails that we organise ourselves to maintain. DECC would just be doing their job and entirely within their rights.
How we deal with it is our choice and being positive, cooperative and enthusiastic about doing the right thing can only improve our situation and maybe take things beyond a limited view.
Matt,
Who is giving up self-righteousness for Easter, but it's not Easter yet...
This comment has been moved here.
I believe we need more unsealed, purpose built, technically variable, properly designed, sustainable XC loop trails so we don't need to ride on designated walking tracks in National Parks.
It doesn't sound too much that they are really interested in working with the MTB community in creating an environment that is acceptable to all the relevant parties.
I think part of the reason why I don't like what NPWS are doing is that none of it is upfront or transparent. It's more a matter of 'It's our land so you bugger off!!'. Whilst that may be true, it would be nice to be included, rather than being scolded like a child and told if we're not nice to them they'll take our tracks away from us!
it was an unusual and irregular circumstance,(and probably irrelevant!) but when we were riding that time and came across the guys giving cpr to that man who died... if there had been no mountain bikers there no one would ever have found him - he was on a rock and trail that horse riders don't use either...and i don't know about the rest of you but its not like oxford falls is inundated with walkers when i am ever there...