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The Bewildered Possum


Brenos's picture

By Brenos - Posted on 17 December 2014

G'day guys and gals
I did a lap around Manly Dam today and included the extended loop.
As i was just entering possums just after the 3 rocks there was an old lady runner coming towards me. I got off and let her pass. Got back on my bike and kept on going. No more than 30meters later there where another 2 runners coming towards me. Did the right thing and got off my bike and let them through, neither of them thanked me. As i come over the little creek crossing i didn't notice the next runner coming at me and we almost collided. Now this guy got the shits because i almost hit him, which in turn started to fire me up. But i just jumped back on and kept riding. There was one more runner just before you go into Kevin Costner, and i asked, are you guys with a group. She said yep a personnel trainer group and we've just started running on this track. I tried to tell her that this was a mtb trail and that they were running in the wrong direction for a start, but she wouldn't listen.
Am i wrong in saying that? Didn't Trevor do this masterpiece ?
Ive been riding possums for 6 months now most afternoons and thats the 1st time ive seen runners or walkers on there.

Brendan Speechley

spindog's picture

there was a large group of orienteers running around Forestville Park, the Bluff, Ararat Reserve and Bantry Bay Rd this afternoon.

They may have been part of this group??

beetle's picture

There was a orienteering marker hanging on one of the trees just after the fencing .i came across three or four of them as well. I must have been following u as one bloke didn't seem to impressed about me coming along the trail . We were quite slow as I was riding with my 8 year old . The trail is there for everyone so we just have to be careful.

Jonny's picture

Looking at the signs in the trail it seems the trail runners used this track last weekend, so this will have shown all the local runners where it is and probably explains the recent appearance of them on the track. Not ideal, but not sure it can be prevented.

Warthog's picture

But no ill feelings or injuries - too close for comfort though. Trail is there to be shared and sh1t happens so just go with the flow (no pun intended).

chicken wings's picture

Just started riding the possum myself as as a more interesting way to link to Seratta. Didn't see any runners yesterday around 1pm but I did notice a trail running club sign, visible if you were riding towards the south. It showed an arrow exiting the trail just before the rock section which is at the start for us.
I do ride the dam often around midday-midweek due to my shift work and I often encounter joggers head on in the one way, no walkers, single track section adjacent the golf course! Guess your gotta always be prepared for anything...
I do have a question though, what is the most correct way to get back onto the dam circuit after crossing the parkway using the pedestrian bridge? Found some good tracks but not sure of the legalities.
Cheers

hawkeye's picture

The fact there has been a collision concerns me. Sight lines on that trail do not really support dual direction travel.

I'd suggest the orienteering markers be removed immediately, which the event promoter should have done.

jedijunglesnow's picture

Sharing the trail with runners is one thing, but I believe they held a running event there recently on a Sunday morning, effectively closing the Possum to bikes.

This I believe is a definite NO GO and should be communicated to the company behind these events. Dreggsy built this trail as a mtn bike trail; for a commercial company to take it over for the purpose of running their own events is ridculous.

ae93gti's picture

Is this the case? I, and quite a number of people I know, ride it to/from the Wakehurst entrance of the Dam in both directions. Beats riding the road.

I've had no issues with runners and have come across quite a few bikes (in both directions) but it's been fine, one or both of us slow down and pass or one of us hops off if too narrow.

spindog's picture

looks like we may not see the orienteers back, I found their event calendar called the sydney summer series http://www.sydneysummerseries.com.au
Forestville Park (aka Ferretville) only appears once on the calendar.

Sounds like we need to find out some more about the PT group that are running on Sunday's?

Sinkes's picture

Love the effort that has gone into it.
Just my thanks.

hawkeye's picture

Dreggsy has commented in other threads on here that it is designed primarily as a climbing trail, intended to fit in with the Serrata and Gahnia loops in Bantry Bay once the network is fully complete.

You can see the intended direction from the fact that it flows so much better in the climbing direction.

I've descended it a few times too but i always yield to climbing traffic.

Once the Gahnia track opens it will probably be too busy to contemplate using it as a descending link and maybe something needs to be formalised? Although that might be hard on an informal trail.

(By the sound of helicopters coming from over Bantry Bay this morning it is possible the missing bridges are being delivered, and hopefully the trail will open shortly.)

Ray R's picture

Any organised activity in a National Park would normally require a "Consent" - and as part of getting (and paying!) for this, potential conflicts with other users are looked at. (along with insurances, safety plans, etc). No doubt something similar would also be required for Manly Dam as well. It would be interesting to know if NPWS/Council were informed of these activities.

jedijunglesnow's picture

It's the trail runners, not the orienteering group.

These guys; http://www.sydneytrailseries.com.au/sydneytrails...

Check out the course map; goes straight through the Possum. They plan on having all the summer races at Manly Dam.

They are welcome to have events but they can't expect to just take over a mtn bike trail, built by riders, and exclude riders from it.

Slowpup's picture

Their trail description acknowledges they are aware the trails are for MTB....

Clipped from their website:

"over the footbridge over Wakehurst Parkway, then into single trail mountain bike trails between the Parkway and Bantry Bay Road"

I suspect that a group ride on the 18th January could see them rethink..... afterall, there isn't an official conduit by which they can communicate their intent (or perceived rights) to the Bewildered Possum user group.

Chitts's picture

......that will very quickly cause them to change venue when it wrecks the event.

C3PO's picture

I'm all for sharing the shared trails, staying away on run days to show a bit of give and take but this seems to be taking it too far. Bewildered Possum trail day on the 18th sounds good to me.

Matt P's picture

The running event has been planned and no doubt expectations have been set.

Regardless of the target audience of the track would it not be a better outcome for all if you made immediate contact with the organisers and advised them of all matters.

I'd be pretty unimpressed as an athlete or organiser to learn that a group of riders knew a month in advance of a running event yet did nothing to change the outcome but instead chose to disrupt someone's eagerly anticipated event.

Seems a little petulant to me.

C3PO's picture

Fair call Matt.
I was basing my comment on the basis contact is made with the organisers to ask for a change of course. Assuming they ignore then I see this as a short term pain but necessary. In no way would you want anyone to get hurt. However if the run takes place it is then an obvious next step for it to become a regular event, leading to a "shared trail" which means you couldn't ride it as it is not suitable for sharing.
As an avid runner I'd be miffed if a purpose built running trail was lost to mtg biking and I see this as a similar risk.
Some trails are built for sharing, some not. This one is just too dangerous to share.
Hopefully the run doesn't proceed on this track as there are many many other trails to run.
Cheers.

hawkeye's picture

As of this afternoon via the event website.

Will advise of any response.

Flynny's picture

Thankfully clear heads prevailed, for a bit here you all sounded like the nimby brigade organising a resistance to MTB on single trail....

Thanks Matt P for words of wisdom and Hawkeye for having the kahonahs to actually contact the group and talk things out civilly.

Brenos's picture

The thing that got me yesterday was there attitude. Like it was there's. They wouldn't stop running when they saw me, they played chicken with me. So i just got off.
Id be up for a group ride
Brendan

Dreggsy1971's picture

out of the amount of walking/running trails that we stay away from riding on, it annoys me that the trail runners are using the mtb track as a training tool. Sure it is on public land and open to all.

Now i am not sure what to do to make it runner unfriendly. put in an obvious jump perhaps?

Maybe on the 18th we need to decide to do some "track work". I do need to cut in a berm just before you come to the end of the Possum.

or even contact/hijack the trail runners facebook page as to why they are using this trail as they have many many others to use.
https://www.facebook.com/sydneytrailseries?fref=ts

I cant remember the last time i saw a runner maintaining the trail.

ive had too many recovery beers to keep going politely.

Brenos's picture

You got PM Dreggsy

pancakes's picture

Were the runners wearing White Sox uniforms?

As Kevin heard, "if you build it, he will come". In this, the sequel, "he" has been replaced by "they".

See you at the movies.

Dreggsy1971's picture

i placed some signs, they are down.

pm not received yet

Brenos's picture

I noticed that the Kevin Costner sign was removed sometime last week. Just as all these pink markers started to appear.
PM sent

pancakes's picture

That pic of Kevin was so bad it was good. Maybe it was someone who saw Waterworld?

Black Flash's picture

It was Robin Hood? Prince of thieves..... Taking the signs... But @pancakes... Anything he'll do... He'll do it for youuuuuuu....

hawkeye's picture

Thanks for the link Jason.

If anyone feels like adding to the post PLEASE keep it polite. We need to retain the high moral ground.

Any action to disrupt the events with riding or maintenance activity should be kept as a last resort. Prefer to talk them out of using this trail without using threats.

hawkeye's picture
Dear John

We have received your communications regarding the use of the trail on the western side of Wakehurst Parkway.

As background the Sydney Trail Series uses this trail as a link to the trails we run in Garigal, to enable our long course runners to get safely from Manly Dam precinct to Garigal National Park and back.

There are generally around 80 or so people who run this particular course.

There are no other trails that link both these areas, and it is not possible for runners to use Bantry Bay road and that is therefore why these trails are used. So unfortunately there are no options for us to re route the long course event.

We understand that these trails have been constructed by Mountain Bikers, and we fully understand and respect the significant effort that has gone into building them, but given they are on public land, and the land is not deemed or set aside for exclusive use, then it is reasonable for it to be used by the public from time to time.

We often see dog walkers and others strolling through the trails.

If you do wish to exclude all other users from these trails and for them to be declared as MTB only trails, then that would be a matter you would need to take up with council.

We don’t believe it is unreasonable to use these trails 3 times a year for a maximum period of 2 hours on a Sunday morning between 6.45 am and 8.45am. This is 6 hours use over an entire year, and of course we do not expect exclusive use during these 3 occasions in any case.

Our runners are briefed at the start of the race that they are using shared trails (which they also do within certain parts of Manly Dam) and to be courteous to riders.

To avoid any confrontation, we would suggest that as an alternative signage is put up advising MTB of this use (we have done this in the past but it just gets pulled down), or perhaps you have a database of riders that you could communicate this to?

In relation to runners, walkers or any other non MTB users of these trails outside the event, that is not something that we have any control on, nor can we have any responsibility for them as I am sure you would understand.

In relation to trail markings they are put up just before the event and are removed by the sweep runner, so would generally cleared by 9am. In relation to other signage being taken down, I don’t think this would be the runners or the sweep runner taking these down, as there would be no reason for them to do that.

Our events and course have full approval from both Warringah Council and National Parks, and our events are fully insured.

I would be happy to further discuss this at any time, so just let me know if you want me to give you a call and when in the best time to do that.

Kind regards
(name and contact details supplied)

C3PO's picture

Thanks Hawkeye,
I think it's time for a reasonable debate in this. Let's try to get a position. I'll start:
This seems like a polite response but I have a few questions and concerns. Where did they run before the track was built? Why can't they run on the road? Why can't they build a running track?
As someone who has competed in these events you are very keen to train on the course. To say it is only 6hrs a year in misleading. By making it part of the run it is encouraging it to be used regularly by runners.
Call it nimbyism but my view is we have many many riders out on race day so that it becomes known it is not a place to run. Runners will provide this feedback to the organisers and they will find alternatives - there are alternatives.
A lot of damn hard work went into this trail - to see it claimed by runners (of which I am one) doesn't seem right. Especially as there are so many more running tracks than there are mtb trails.
I'm not offended by opposing views and please feel free to disagree - please try to keep it to reasons/facts and not simple name calling.
My view - we all ride on race day.
Cheers,

hawkeye's picture

He's raised runner safety on Bantry Bay Road as an issue. I don't believe it is any issue at all but I've offered to show him alternate routes that are mostly off road (eg back of the houses adjoining Forestville Park.

I've also made the point you covered regarding training on the course and the increase in foot traffic it has caused.

I have also advised him of the reasons for our serious displeasure being rooted in the history of being shut out of walking trails for the last 5-6 years, the strength of which being likely to induce large numbers of riders electing to end their policy of staying away during the occasional footrace and instead ride on the trail at speed and not yield to runners.

@C3PO, would you be able to scout an alternative route that will address his objections?

C3PO's picture

Thanks Hawkeye - I'll try running up that way later today and sus out alternatives. Anyone else with local knowledge feel free to share.
I too was thinking behind the houses/oval after crossing the road. From a runner's perspective not as good but I think a reasonable compromise.
Cheers,

dtm's picture

What a joke by having a race on that trail they are just opening it up to over 80 runners who would now know this trail as a link track and running trail they wouldn't even be aware its a MTB trail ...
strange how did they run the race before the trail was built? They should revert back to that original race route.
I guess its a bit harsh but we know what day the race is on and what time etc could easily block the trail off in places with sticks logs etc for that one day? lol that would stuff them up pretty quickly and slow the lead runners down ,,, yes I agree harsh But affective and the fact that there are so many other specific running trails in the area they have too choose from yet only a tiny tiny handful of MTB trails

hawkeye's picture

It will be construed as laying traps.

If we are unable to persuade this crew to back off a physical presence and more importantly clear communication is required on site on the day.

I'm hopeful it won't get to that.

Matt P's picture

On NPWS land and is it legal?

hawkeye's picture

It's not on land managed by NPWS and there is no issue with legality.

At this point in negotiations I'd prefer the land manager not be publicised on the public domain please.

Matt P's picture

Being so close to the new trails in Bantry Bay I wasnt sure if TBP was in Garigal NP. So it's a bit like Red Hill then (which is Crown land)?

hawkeye's picture

Yes.

GarethP's picture

There is a trail from Ararat Reserve that goes down to the water and along and comes up at Seaforth Oval that would be suitable as a link track- Bluff Track - Bay track and Timber Getters track.
I used to do a fair bit of trail running in the area. I ran the mtb track but always gave way to bikes. I think the trail can be shared but formalizing the mtb trail would be best.

They used to run exclusively within Manly Dam as far as I am aware, using the network of walking trails there.

I actually rode Possum last January when the race was on an had to give up due to the stream of runners.

C3PO's picture

Had a look at the course map and went for a run up near TBP. Interestingly the course map states it is shared with other walkers and runners - no mention of MTBs.
With more scouting I'm sure there are other options but here's some ideas:
1. Just run along Bantry Bay Rd. Unfortunately the verge isn't always available so this will require some sections on road. It is not dangerous and there will be minimal traffic. Authorities can be very painful so this may not be an option?
2. Just do an extra lap on the short course.
3. Cross Bantry Bay Rd and then turn right along the pipeline. It's a really nice grass run and then turn left, staying on the verge of Rangers Retreat Rd. Cross here to run behind the houses, along another nice grass run to Ararat Oval. This route would require 2 or 3 marshals but is a nice run.
None of these are perfect but in the scheme of a nice 18k run you don't lose the concept.
Organising races can be a very hard and thankless task. That doesn't give the organisers the right to ignore another user group (from experience sometimes you lose sight of this).
I'm hoping the race organisers reconsider. If not then I think it is unfortunate but an organised continuous mtb loop of TBP & KK, without any amendments to the track nor anger.
The race organisers must ensure the safety of the community and runners. Put this at risk and the whole race is at risk - he will blink if push comes to shove.
I get this sounds a bit selfish but I think a line in the sand now will avoid lots of longer term grief.
Cheers.

kitttheknightrider's picture

hmm, trail maintenance day

on the same morning, signs at all 4 entrances stating trail closed for maintenance and pointing to the road for detour. People at all 4 signs with boots, hard hats and safety vests (ie looking like workers) explaining there is machinery on trail addressing the wet areas and that the trail is closed for safety issues.

Job done.

Brenos's picture

It's really starting to look like a maintenance day, group ride then.

hawkeye's picture

a few times (well, six actually. Too much fun!)

Here's what happened.

I narrowly avoided a head on collision with a tightly bunched group of three runners just as they were charging out, exiting Kevin Costner. A second earlier and we'd have cleaned each other up.

Slowpup and I pulled up a 20-something female runner plugged into her iPod just as she was about to enter off the overbridge path. He'd narrowly avoided a head-on collision earlier as well.

Live and let live is what we'd like to aim for, but my views are firming that we need to do something to discourage runners. There's no chance that a zoned-out iPlodder is going to hear a rider approaching, and there is a high likelihood it will not end well.

hawkeye's picture

I also noticed that a path has been beaten around the rocky section at the southern end (entrance) of Bewildered Possum. The way it flows I'm doubtful it's riders.

Trail braiding southern end Bewildered Possum

The photo is aimed back down the trail towards the southern entrance off the Engravings Track.

Riders to come towards the camera via the trail line across the rocks on the right. The beaten down path on the left is new.

Also confirmed that traffic really is a non-issue. Winter might be different with the soccer fields, but this is a summer series.

Sinkes's picture

If you come across a runner, just tell them there was big brown snake on the trail. They will think twice about using the trail.

spindog's picture

this trail was built by riders for riders and represents very scarce resource!

the response from the runners doesn't surprise and kinda’ smacks of entitlement - hey we only do this occasionally so what’s the beef? they have runs planned each month for the next three months. having already run one event and by publicising this trail lots of runners are already out training and now just consider it’s their turf.

just what we don't need is more “i-plod zombies” on the trail running in the wrong direction on a trail that’s normally only used by riders

maybe a conversation with their insurers is in order i.e. the organisers of this series are now knowingly directing 80+ runners down a non-shared trail in the opposite direction to fast moving riders during the busiest time of the week early on a Saturday morning …. most insurers will run a mile if they sense an increased risk of a claim!

Flynny's picture

It feels like I've gone back to 1998 and stumbled into a walkers forum discussing how to keep those damn mountain bikers off the trail.

One nearly hit me...

They can take the fire trail or road...

They are modifying the trail...

A horde of them came through and forced me to yield trail...

{cue the soppy music} Memory, all alone in the moonlight

spindog's picture

way too many "NO BIKES" signs on the trails around here ..

it's not like the 'gow! Eye-wink

hawkeye's picture

Maybe we need something like these signs (without the sponsor logos). They are very sturdy, constructed of 150mm diameter posts with a 3mm aluminum sign placard bolted to them with four bolts.

Note that the trail system is one way and excludes walkers and horses.



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