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The quest to upgrade to a duallie...
Having read the previous threads on Asylum's quest for a Trance, unfortunately I'm going to have to raise it again.
Been riding about a year now with practice rides around the Dam and more recently, Ourimbah, Appin and Yellomundie.
So a love for single tracks with a thing for smashing through downhill sections at speed, is what we ride.
Now we have the three of us wanting to upgrade to a duallie after been riding hardtail Avanti and Apollo's all this time.
Demo'd a Cannondale Rize with the Lefty and other than the issues with the gear shifts, it was a sweeeet ride.
Havent ridden anything else yet but I'm getting advice that lefty's are the way to go. The responsiveness made it that much more easier to tackle Ourimbah with pace and ease over the technical sections of Rollercoaster.
Rear suspension felt very spongey and felt very light,
Now I have 2 other disciples/addicts, that are going to buy very soon as well. One was eyeballing a Cannondale as well and the other, a Trek EX 9.5 07 for $4K (seems like a good deal given RRP is $9K).
Our budget is $2500 - $3500 ... is it possible to get the same ride as a Rize with that budget. Opinions please???
We've been everywhere including BA, CBD, Cyclery, BBB, NBC, BBF ... getting diff opinions at every one of them. Arrrgh !!
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Having been in your position a few years ago now, I would take a moment to really do the research and ride as many bikes as you can. The first dual suspension you ride will always feel great, the question is how great will it feel in 6 months or a year. It's surprising how quickly your skills develop and you can out grow a bike.
I have never ridden a Cannondale or Lefty so I cannot provide any informed comment on them, but I have always been wary of the proprietary nature of the lefty fork. Having said that many people swear by them and that of course counts for something. Personally I like being able to swap out one fork for another over time, hubs, etc etc so I stick with the standard parts.
When I was in your position going from my first hardtail to a dual suspension I rushed in and bought a Specialized Stumpjumper and soon outgrew it, meaning I sold it and lost money then got a new one. Looking back a few more weeks research and I would have got the bike I ultimately purchased. There is so much choice now it's not easy, but forums like this, but review sites such as mtbr.com help a lot, plus pick up some mags as well such as mountainbiking UK, whatmountainbike and of course the Aussie ones.
That's my two cents, hope it helps and good luck. Buying a new bike's a great thing!
Sorry I didn't answer your question really, yes it is possible - whether it's carbon or not I'm not sure in that range but you can definitely get other bikes with similar characteristics to the Rize in that price range. I'd say the Trek EX have great reviews, some of the Specialized frames but watch the forks or Giant of course for value for money and great suspension system with the Maestro.
One other option - get a second hand bike. You could easily find yourself a higher grade frame / spec for that money and if you find in a year you want to upgrade you won't lose anywhere near as much at resale. Think Yeti, Santa Cruz, Orange etc. May have to bring in from overseas but if you're buying through a forum you're highly unlikely to get ripped off and the bike is often well looked after. My friend picked up a Yeti 575 a year ago from the US for about $3000 and shipped it for $400. Still going strong today and it's a great bike. I sold my Santa Cruz Nomad here a few months ago for about $3k. That was a $7k bike new and it was in excellent condition with great components (XTR, X.0, Juicy Brakes, Pike Fork, Mavic SX wheels etc).
With 2010 frames due in a few months, you'll also see discounts on this year models both new and second hand so it's a good time to start looking. I think August / Sept is when the deals really kick in and you might not want to waste that riding time looking of course, but it's worth knowing.
Every bike shop is going to tell you that the brands they sell are better than the brands that they don't...
Similarly, most ppl with a particular brand will tell you that their ride is better than the other brands. At the end of the day most brands are about the frame only, and then what combination of components; wheelset and suspension they throw into final package. Cannondale & Specialized are the only two brands that come to mind that include 'their own' front suspension.
Last time I caught wind of complete bike prices, Giant seemed to be offering the best value for money. There have been a few NoBMoBers that have purchased Giants recently, Trance and Reigns I think.
Having said that, I'm a Lefty rider and have been for over 2 years & my next MTB upgrade will be another Cannondale Lefty.
And then re-try the ones you really liked - the other thing is different body types like different geometry which is more true on a duallie than a hard tail, the best thing to do is when you've pick the bikes you like go on-line and write out all the geometry specs and see which on fits what you want to do.
Also it's worth paying a little more to ensure you get the brake and suspension package you want on the bike - putting on new running gear (when you wear old stuff out) is much cheaper than new brake and suspension parts (as I've found out)
i've never ridden with a lefty fork, BUT, they look ridiculous and require special lefty specific hubs. Get a bike that has 'normal' components so that when the mood strkes you, you can change parts and when old parts die they can be replaced by a range of competitively priced parts (rather than canondale specific parts of which there are obviously less of a range).
My opinion is go for a giant, they seem to be the best value for money these days (although i don't actually ride a giant)
Just went through this decision a few weeks back and ended up with a Giant Trance X2 which is around the money you were looking at. I liked it over the all the others and it was on sale which helped! I didn't try a leftie but i just didn't like the look of it - so can't really comment on the ride versus the trance.
I haven't been able to ride the trance x2 as it has rained since i picked it up!
I saw the 07 trek in town yesterday. Has technology improved in 2 years - i would have thought so??
Good luck.
Why I like the Lefty is that it is stiff, and light. Cannondale claim the carbon version (1155g for the Lefty Speed Carbon SL w/DLR which is 110mm travel) is has the best weight/stiffness about.
Grab your bars when standing in front of your bike, stick the wheel between your legs and wiggle the bars. Some fork/wheel combos wobble like jelly!
The QR15 standard is improving this mind, and doesn't weigh a whole lot more that standard QR.
Think someone else said - you want the fork to be stiff in technical work so it goes precisely where you point it.
Yes, it is a bit of a pain having to build your front wheel with a Lefty hub but so long as you're aware of this no real issue.
And one can never tire of the, "Mate, half your fork is missing (snigger)" comments on the trail.
Hey Flubberghusted,
I too rushed in when I bought my first mtb, and made a mistake.... I really should have ridden more AND ridden them on the intended trails. (I bought a Giant NRS for its 'efficient pedalling platform' btw).
The bikes you are mentioning (cannondale and trek) are single pivot designs. These essentially rely on chain tension and platform shocks to counter suspension bob. Many people find this ok, and many are extremely capable bikes, but you will always have some suspension stiffening when climbing and braking. I'll reiterate, many accept this as ok. To me, on our predominantly technical trails active suspension is a benefit.
So.... there are other suspension designs that minimise bob while providing active traction and braking.
Giant maestro, Horst Link, and Dave Weagle's DW link. Santa Cruz/Intense Virtual Pivot sits in the middle, as it still has pedal feedback in the granny gear.
I've ridden horst link on my last two bikes (Turner and Titus), these were 5" and 4" travel bikes and I've been happy with them. I ride a DW link bike now with 5.5" inches of suspension, and can honestly say engineering has come a very long way in recent times. It has zero platform in the rear shock, no pedal kickback, yet has no suspension bob, and is plush and active under power and braking. It is also really efficient, and I use it as my race bike. It is also insanely fun to ride the rest of the time!
So I'm not saying mine is the best, it just suits me for what I want to do. I'm also saying test active suspension, because you could get a nice surprise!
On forks, lefty has a real weight advantage, is stiff as a dual fork bike, but the downside is they only come on Cannondales and they are a hassle to put on the roof unless you have an adapter. there are plenty of 'regular' forks that you will be happy with.
W.
That you have the type of roof rack that requires the front wheel to be taken off, otherwise there is no issue...
Lefty's can be adapted onto other bikes, just may prove difficult in finding the Lefty on it's own.
Thanks guys.
The fella that got us into mtb also said that Giant seems to be value for money especially components wise but some shop guys are telling us that Giants frame are absolute rubbish. It makes sense given no lifetime warranty comes with the Giant.
Now at BBF, we took the Giant X2 for a spin "around the car park". It felt very stiff and didnt feel as comfortable as the Lefty. But I suppose I need to take it for a real offroad spin. Pedals are rubbish but I can easily transfer my old platform ones across. But we asked whether there were any run outs on old models etc and the BBF guy said "nah, we sell all our stock like hot cakes" I find that a little hard to believe.
Any stores that do demos on the Giants? BA does it but for $80 (I personally think its ridiculous that they charge for demos).
Rob, I felt the pain. When I was riding the Lefty for just the day, I had motoheads and others having a laugh at bike with comments "so we know which hand is your strong one" and "go the chopstick"!
So we're gonna go to Burwood and check it out there today. Had the worst service from the CBD guys the other day, so there goes a 3 bike sale.
Thanks Heeza, I am open to second hand bikes but me mates are keen for a new one so if it means a group discount, it may be worth it to go retail. Santa Cruz's would so sweet but a little pricey. I saw the Stumpjumpers and they look pretty good but am now concerned of outriding it.
How would one go abouts getting from one O/S other than calling friends I barely speak to going "oh heeey, any chance u live next to a bike store?!"
this is shameless, but you might like it....
I have possibly the nicest Scott Spark in Australia and its for sale.
I wanted to get 4k for it, but I'm starting to get annoyed with waiting etc. so would let it go for 3.5
It has three levels of travel - 110m/80m/locked - all controlled from the handlebar.
Its full carbon, has top of the line kit on it.
Anyway, if you are looking for a deal, this is the one. Its worth well into 5figures.
Its size large frame (would suit people under 6foot3 and over 5foot10ish) and it happens to be listed in the classified section.
Google it. Scott Spark.
Or look at this Cycling News article. this is exactly like mine..
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/light-makes-...
Giant are following the current trend of making lightweight frames.
I've seen them break, but I've also broken a Turner frame, one of the most respected hand built makes in the USA (replaced under warranty though!). I've also seen rocky mountain and mongooses break. Also know of two Ibis carbon frames that had problems (also replaced under warranty). So what does this mean....
If you are big and heavy, you are going to stress a lightweight frame with lots of 'fluid forming' and fancy curves and bends. Expect to get 2 happy years, then after that it may or may not crack, break or give problems. If you are 'normal' weight, 3-5 years is a pretty common lifespan. Having said that I ride a 9 year old carbon frame on the road! [ fyi: http://nobmob.com/node/9703 ]
The important thing is to get a frame that suits you and your intended riding style. Giant and everyone else make bikes in 4, 5, 6" travel, and this generally equates to their intended usage. I'd have no problem with a Giant, or any other quality brand from a longevity perspective, as long as it's used for its intended purpose and weight loading.
Another quick observation: "It felt very stiff and didn't feel as comfortable as the Lefty"
To compare apples with apples make sure the suspension is set up with the correct sag & rebound for your weight before you ride it. Any quality bike shop will do that for you. If they don't or don't how, go elsewhere because they are demonstrating that they do not understand the most important aspect of bike preparation.
There is a company that's been set up in the US that let's you post stuff to them and they then forward it on to you, thus giving you an address to ship to in the US. They charge a small amount. I'm sure I first read about on here from memory. Anyway, looked pretty good.
I've bought both new and second hand, and I know it's great knowing you're the first to own, know it's history etc, but you will get great deals if you can be bothered to look around - take a look at these:
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showproduct.php?prod...
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showproduct.php?prod...
http://classifieds.mtbr.com/showproduct.php?prod...
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?t...
As long as the frame is good, everything else can be swapped. Another option - get a great frame deal from the US (costs less to ship over, then buy a parts package either from Chainreaction, Jenson or Pricepoint or even from Australia. You can get a frame kit from dealers which is really just a package of parts for a frame (such as Yeti) that include fork, wheels, drive train etc for a couple of thousand.
Who ever told you giant frames are crap is full of it themselves.
There is only a few factories where bikes are mass produced and quite a few brands come out of the Giant factory. The difference comes down to design and quality control set by the different companys.
I don't stock Giants I would not knock the quality of their build.
Not many people have life time warranty on their frames now anyway.
When I first started riding I had a Giant and was soon pushing it past the limits of what it was designed for. When it developed a crack at the shock mount I wasn't expecting warranty as I had been DHing on what was an entry level dually. Warranty however was given.
If your shop is bagging out frames they don't sell they are probably feeding you BS elsewhere too
Bike Additction had sales on last years Giants on sale for a decient price the other weekend - not sure if it's extended to this weekend.
In the grand scheme of things any bike frame can be broken no matter what sticker is on the frame.
Most bike shops with an on-line purchase site will ship OS - but they require that you phone in instead of the on-line form.
after riding an Avanti hardtail for a few years.
Love it & Cycology up at Tuggerah had some very good prices & was worth the drive from the North side - was tempted to blow my budget & go for the X1 which had a $3700 tag on it!
Giant value is hard to go past if you're on a budget & after doing some research I was pretty confident I would be happy with the Trance X - no disappointment so far (check out Mountain Bike Action's $2500 bike shootout http://www.mbaction.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&...).
It's absolutely right that getting the sag right will make a huge difference to the feel of the bike. The components on the Giant are great too - the X2 has full SLX (apart from hubs). Feels silky smooth after the HT.
Adapters to retrofit 1 1/8" headtube frames with Lefty forks are readily available out of the US through eBay. Seems to be a bit of a market developing for it - I've seen shots of Ibis bikes fitted with a Lefty, among others.
I find the extra stiffness of the larger diameter fork(?) tube and dual-clamp "crown" of the lefty translates to greater confidence when the track gets gnarly. And if you get a flat, you don't have to take off the wheel.
The problem with the kind of roofrack where you have to take off the front wheel is that you then need space to put the wheel. Not always easy if you have a car full of burly blokes with all their bikes on your roof. So I have the kind where you don;t take the wheels of regardless of teh type of fork, and I can get the whole family's bikes on the roof without having to squeeze my daughter into the glovebox.
There are a few secondhand 'dales coming up on fleaBay - I'm looking for one for my son, as he will be outgrowing his mongoose in a couple of weeks if he keeps this current growth spurt up. Prices are reasonable.
Where I work, we sell Avanti and Specialized, and it's wrong to bag other brands. I happily have two Giants from prior to my employment there. One is for sale, yet only because it's time to move on. The other I broke the frame on a weld, succesfully received a warranty replacement, and all is well. The truth is that my Giants have been very pleasurable to ride.
When a shop states that a certain model from the previous model year is sold out, then it's the truth. It's June '09 and it won't be long before the '10 stuff arrives. The factories are already building them. There's no need to lie about such things. If a customer asks 'Do you have or can you obtain bike X from last year?' then I check. Really popular stuff will be answered with a no. Less popular stuff a yes. There is no way that a very popular bike like a Trance X2 from 2008 will be available a whole year after they rolled over to '09 production, with the exception of odd sizes perhaps.
It's my job to tell everyone how fantastic Specialized bikes are, and what's more I truly believe it. Yet I also really like many, many other brands also, such as the aforementioned Cannondale, which is quite possibly the nicest riding single pivot bike out there. It's a very different product to the FSR bikes indeed. And the lefty fork is one very clever piece of engineering. The motorcycle world has been trying to rid itself of the telescopic two sided fork, due to it's limitations, for many years and only BMW seem to be succeeding. In the MTB world, only Cannondale continue to R & D this field.
My next bike is to be a Stumpy. I believe in Specialized FSR, I believe in Specialized frame standards and I'm really into other Specialized products. That's not to say that other brands are rubbish. The big brands are all good. And many of the smaller ones too. It's as simple as that.
Getting a real world test ride is next to impossible. There's just too much money tied up in these things for people to just randomly test ride on the basis that they may purchase. I've heard all the excuses about try before you buy etc. Just take the car park ride and make a seat of the pants judgement. I did.
In 2003 I bought a new Trek Liquid based on reviews and a round the block ride. I took the plunge and that bike kept me pretty happy for four years yet it was another two before I actually showed it the door. Back then I bought the bike on a bit of faith because I didn't want to confuse myself too much by riding a whole heap of different models.
Buy the bike that appeals to you most, for what ever reason that may be.
We're selling Stumpy Elites in Red only for $3K all sizes while stocks last...
Thanks for the post delicious. I may have met you if you're in the Chatswood store
Stumpy's are one of the brands I'm looking at however I'm leaning more towards one of the lefty Cannondale's or Giant X2.
Simply because I had the opportunity to ride them and its a store tactic that does work. CBD is good enough to do it and for free as well and its why now, I'm on the Cannondale bandwagon now. Only reason why I wont go back to CBD to buy it was because of one incident of bad service.
Its not a free ride in a way because we will be buying it eventually. Store Owners who are creative enough to set a few bikes of each brand aside for free demo's will benefit the most to a loyal customer base. In addition, they usually offload the demo's during a clearance sale anyway. Now because Hugh of CBD was good enough to do this, I felt obligated to buy from there and even refer the other two lads wanting a bike, down there as well. This is clever marketing and works well.
Demo Social days are also another clever strategy to sell the bikes as well.
But to be honest, I wouldnt pay to ride a demo. The sentiment is that, I'm doing the buying here...
Anyway, that aside, I have been told by a many, that the Giants are the most value for money. It does look like the components are there but one has to question where they would save costs on. So of course, ppl will turn to the frame. Who knows, maybe its because they churn them out by the numbers and have Oompa Loompas in their factories. But, I would like to give the X2 a run around the Dam and see for myself.
Had one of the guys in this forum call me up to sell their old Giant so I'll be down at the Dam giving it a run...another testament to how well demo riding works towards selling a bike. This forum is so awesome btw!
On that note, if anyone is selling an old L or XL duallie and its a bike that they swear by their grandmas on, my two other friends would be keen. The XL (6"4) fella is staring at Trek's or Cannondale's. The L (6"0) fella is doing Giant's or anything really...bloody tall bastards (says the one who is 5"6!)
Heeza, thanks for the O/S links mate !!
Love, Flubs
Call me old fashioned, but....
Whisperer - over to you...love to hear a full structural analysis, including assessment of the torsional forces applicable when fitting a lefty fork to an otherwise perfectly good carbon bike - without reinforcing the headtube.
(please provide all diagrams, including finite element analysis, the impact of the difference in fork axle setback, not only on the length in wheelbase, but also on weight distribution; and potential performance impact on the DW link's virtual pivot system).
__________________________
Happiness is a proper fork
or: Symmetry is the aesthetic of the primates
Something just looks terribly wrong with that picture.
Back to the topic at hand, I believe you can get the Ibis Mojo in an SLX build for about $5K new.
I wonder if that should be under consideration?
Ah... a thing of beauty.
Well - aside from the silly chain guide and dual pot brakes - one only needs them for DH work and who want to DH on an Mojo?!
Leftys have been seen them on Yeti's too:
From: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopi...
I confess to being a convert and now loyal acolyte of the Lefty.
When my Scott Genius frame broke several years ago I got a Rush as a loaner for the weekend - by the time I took it back I was trying to figure out how I could keep it. Turned out to be a carbon Team weapon of a machine but still the Rush I ride now I love - the Scott Genius MC30, all fully operational, rarely makes it out of the chocks when a ride is coming up.
The additional stiffness and responsiveness of the lefty is impossible to beat, and the single pivot design is very robust.
My 2c worth
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if at first you don't succeed, try not to look astonished.
Dude after a genius, riding a penny farthing would seem awesome
My mate was on his 3rd warranty frame, and that has been welded at the rear stay twice....he eventually gave up and bought a morewood shova....no he's happy!
A Yeti with a lefty ( or should that be lefti...? )
My 2c worth.
I upgraded to a Yeti 575 from a Cannondale F1 hardtail. Both are ( were..) superb bikes. When looking to upgrade, I came down to a choice between the Yeti and a Cannondale Rize.
The guys at CBD gave me a Rize demo for the weekend and a 575 demo for the following weekend.... great way to test !
I eventually got the 575 although it was a close call, the Rize was excellent but I was just between sizes, where the 575 felt just right. At the time I thought if I could get the 575 with a lefty it wouldbe perfect. I always found the lefty to be a great fork. It's a bit limited in its adjustment potential ( esp. compared to the 426 Revelation I'm running now) but it feels stiff, light and responsive. It's worth noting that the Rize 2 came with a carbon lefty with fox internals. Sure, buying wheelsets was more complicated, but Mavic etc have lefty versions of most of their good wheelsets and CRC always had lefty hubs in stock for doing their custom builds. Also, most of the Cannondale dealers had wheels made up in stock. I run a roof rack mounted carrier which doesn't need the wheels to come off and I ran an extra set of 700c commuting wheels from a Bad Boy.... changing was not any longer than with a 'normal' fork / wheel combo.
All up, I loved the Lefty.... ( haven't tried a maxle lite or 15QR yet though....)
CB
See, plenty of support for the Lefty Platform. Love the look of these wheels. Santa - are you listening!
http://www.velonews.com/photo/90414
Thanks for all the advice guys and gals.
Tried the Giant Trance X1's which was great and light.
The GT Force carbon which was ok and light but found it hard climbing.
Lastly, gave the Stumpjumper a run but found the front suspension to be to lacking any bounce.
Felt the most comfortable on the Lefty and am quite happy to swear by it now ... the steering responsiveness and the front suspension was just too good and 5 inches of travel made it fun.
We've gone with two Cannondale Rush 4's with the 110mm Lefty fork. Our third mate went for a GT Marathon Elite.
Got the 3 bikes all from CBD where Chris was quite a sport and put up with my incessant pestering.
Rush for $3200 and GT for $2500. How did we do for price?