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Trail design and construction 101 - Hornsby
I have a meeting coming up with the guy at Hornsby Council appointed to drive the MTB options in the area. The purpose is to discuss trail planning and building ideas. I am not special (well, special in other areas) and have no idea where to start. Hornsby Council seem to be very proactive in investigating this and are in a consultative mode. I wish to contribute as best I can and at the moment lack experience and knowledge. Can some people give me some practical advice on how a council's intentions translate to actual designing and building a XC track?
How was the Manly Dam track built?
Do you get a big grant and bring in a team of convicts to make it?
Do council dudes make it after being given guidance on design.
Are surveyor involved?
Bobcats? or people with hoes
How much detail should be provided?
What costs would be involved?
Do you do it with your mates?
How do you get people involved?
Do you employ some legend and get him to design it? Or does the local major have a crack at it?
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or have a look here http://www.imba.com/
Yes I know, North American, but they have lots of good stuff on trail design and advocacy etc etc.
Sorry, thats all I can help with answers although I am sure there are others here with more experience that will be forth coming with more relevant info.
Good luck and let us know when the trail days start
Hi BobaFett,
There is a guy named Oppy on a brisbane MTB forum www.mtbdirt.com.au who is not only a keen rider but a Brisbane City Council park ranger who has played a major role in the establishment and maintenance of most of Brissies trails. I have done numerous maintenance and building days under his guidance and would suggest talking to him as he has alot of Knowledge. It seems that NSW and Sydney in particular has a shortage of people in the right places who are open to MTB access and sustainable trail building so it takes motivated individuals like yourself to act. Obviously, going into meetings with authorities armed with heaps of knowledge and examples of sustainable trails is important so talk to those who have done it. Oppy, being a Park Ranger and having connections with other trail advocates is a good place to start and he is very appraochable. Check out www.imba.com for more info and if you can track down Gillian Duncan in Brisbane she would also be open to helping. She is a pioneer or trail advocacy in QLD.
If you cant get hold of Oppy or Gillian I would be happy to try as I Know some people who ride with them both.
Good luck
You don't have to do this all on your own. Start networking - now!
Do a search on trail building on this site and start playing the six degrees of separation game.
You'll find someone who knows someone who knows someone... etc and you'll end up with some good contacts, but you'll want several to choose from so that you can vet them and select someone who is reliable, professional and skilled to be present with you at the meeting. I'd also suggest you start tapping your local bike shops for expertise as well, as they have an interest in promoting trails in their area.
Be aware that some people are small-minded and regrettably may start trying to use the situation to their own advantage at the expense of the bigger picture. Keep the consultative group you pull together small to both minimise this risk and keep it manageable. Make it plain that *you're* managing this and if they start playing games, they're replaceable. This is my experience from observing similar ventures with other sports/pastimes working with councils to obtain facilities. Folks who play politics will kill it quicker than you can say "Wha' happened?"
I can give you advice as both a Council employee and the person who got awaba off the ground and member of the NPWS Glenrock Consultative Committee.
For your first chat, unless Council have indicated that they want specific detail, just go in and keep it general. Realistically, Council funding issues are going to mean that not a lot is likely to happen right now anyway, unless it is already in the forward planning budget, which I doubt.
How do trails get designed/built? That will all depend on funding. With Awaba we (HMBA) paid for World Trail to design and we build. With Glenrock, the trails are there but NPWS contracted World Trail to undertake an audit and are looking to get them to train up a volunteer maintenance crew.
This probably flows into the grant question......I've been looking/trying for a few years and they aren't easy to come by. Slave labour is a good option if you have motivated riders around (luckily we seem to have a heap). I have heard of other areas utilising prisoner day release work programs, but I've never looked into it.
Surveyor??
We didn't use on, a half decent GPS is all you need to map out a trail, along with flagging tape. Depending on the land (and Council) a Flora and Fauna study will probably be required as well. We also looked at aboriginal archaeology, but Council will tell you what constraints need to be addressed for a particular parcel of land.
Costs??
This is where it hurts. 10km's of trail design, cost us around $7500. Obviously that will change depending on the topography. Add another $4500 for a Flora and Fauna report and things start to add up before you even get approval to build. Once you start, there is tools, materials and everything else that goes along with building. So no, its not cheap.
Personally, I would get a club involved and that will help with credibility and with harnessing volunteer numbers.
If you have anything specific you want to ask though, ask away. Sorry for the disjointed reply, in a hurry to get back to the Asian Champions League Semi Final.
I'll ring you.
This is why NOBMOB should become a proper club.
TORC (well their Secretary I talked to - Simon) sounded keen on getting involved too.
Here is some light reading:
http://www.imba.com/resources/organizing/index.html
http://www.development.tas.gov.au/sportrec/publi...
http://www.amtbc.com/index.php?option=com_conten...
http://www.imba.com/resources/agencies/aus_mtb_p...
http://nobmob.com/node/5493
As a Hornsby resident I'm well keen on helping where I can. Let me know.
Might be worth talking with Huw Kingston of Wild Horizons down in Southern Highlands who has organised loads of events on trials and has built trails in Wingello State Forest. I reckon he'd have tons of experience in this area...
>Do you get a big grant and bring in a team of convicts to make it?
Both. Sport and rec grants offer dollar for dollar contributions. Your contribution can in kind such as volunteer labour or donations or can be backed with council funds
>Do council dudes make it after being given guidance on design.
No. Well unless they put someone on for the task but most councils would not know the first thing about building a trail, civil engineers are great at making flat/smooth things that conform to the drawins. MTB trails need to evolve. What look good on paper sometimes just does ride well
>Are surveyor involved?
Depends if you need the boundardy surveyed or if you have threatened flora that need to be avoided but most;y not.
>Bobcats? or people with hoes
Both if you can get the funding. People with hoes if you can't
>How much detail should be provided?
This is a toughy. One thought is to submit a vague proposal and then let councils planning department decide what else they require.
>What costs would be involved?
Heaps if you go for a fully funded project. IMBA quote something like $90us per meter,,, We've built and maintained Lidsdale for 15years for the price of fuel to get there and a BBQ every now and then
If you go for a pro design and build you will be looking at 5-20K for the design and 100k+ for the build
DAs will need to be submitted attracting council fees. Flora and Fauna studies may be required... Eco report if they show up anything...
>Do you do it with your mates?
Yep
>How do you get people involved?
Forums like this or local club
>Do you employ some legend and get him to design it? Or does the local major have a crack at it?
If you get the funding World Trail and Dirt Trailz are both good though they still require volunteer labour and in kind donations to make up the dollar for dollar contribution
bounce me an email or PM, we've got a DA in with council at the moment and I can send you the stuff we have submitted so far for ideas.
Also CORC have most of there papers archived at http://www.corc.asn.au/trails/papers.asp
thanks heaps for the information. I've got a lot of enjoyable reading ahead of me. looking forward to meeting some new friends and riding mates through all this as well. i don't know about me managing this but i certainly want to try to contribute or help others involved to break down any hurdles stopping it moving forward. and maybe drawing people together to work collectively would be cool. i guess its one of those things that needs a bunch of people with the same ultimate goal and lots of patience. hopefully not too much politics though. Thanks again and anymore advice would be welcome, If there is anyone else in the hornsby area interested please let me know or pm me and i will keep you posted with any progress that i hear of
hey bobafett i'm a keen rider from the hornsby area and would really like to help this cause. please email me or phone me if i can help (i think both of those forms of contact are on my profile page). i'll PM you now just for good measure. i work as an environmental engineer for a consultancy in hornsby after studying environmental management at university. i deal with local council and development applications day in day out so i like to think i could help you. i've also lived around hornsby all my life so know the area well. i'm also more than happy to get dirty with trail maintenance. i went to the oxford falls dh and local residents meeting earlier this week and was impressed with potential for progress there. anyway...keep up the good work and know that people are available to help.