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Post public meeting with NPA chat
Let's keep this civil! We dont want to insult any of the speakers or comments from tonight..
but..
Here is a chance for us to debrief on tonights NPA meeting. Firstly I think it was great to see so many MTB supporters, and to hear from our local government representatives and Mike. Like I said at the start of Question time we are all on the same page (Mostly).
I was very impressed on the quality of the MTB supporters, especially the slides showing the difference between a pushy and a trail bike. I watch countless trail bikes go up to cromer / red hill each weekend. It has reached the point where I dont ride it as they have full run of the place.
Here is a few photos I took a few months back. This is the same place Ken was talking about. The trails are mostly gone up there, but I do go walking now and then and normally come across 3-4 trail bikes (MTB is rare now). I watched this trail rider throw full throttle at a muddy ledge trying to get up it, it took him about a minute but he finally did. The aftermath was a hole both my feet fitted in easily.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31749975@N03/sets/7...
http://www.flickr.com/photos/31749975@N03/437889...
Feel free to use these photos in any presentations or advocacy work you do.
So I guess its a bit of where to from here.. What do you all think?
For those not in attendace the key points are
1. MTB is a growing sport. 15,000-20,000 people are active in the sport on the Northern Beaches.
2. MTB has very few facilities or support from local government, which is only fueling illegal trail's being cut.
3. NPA members dont fully understand the difference between Trail and Mountain bike usage. We tried to do some education.
4. MTB and NPA both want the same thing, conservation and sustainability.
5. Local Government representatives understand the need for trails and need a strategy to get funding from government to built sustainable trails and parks.
6. Erosion caused by construction and "Motor/Mountain Bike" is causing a vast amount of material to be dumped into Narrabeen Lagoon.
7. MTB Community is ready to help.. Just tell us how.
8. Garrigal National Park & Cromer Heights / Red Hill is home to a number of rare and endagered plant species.
9. The natural construction of this area of sydney is already highly sensitive to erosion.
What did I miss?
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What were the main points, points which generated comments and feedback, general tone of the meeting, etc.
... and what will the Manly Daily's story headline say?
The impression i got from most of the councilors is that $$$ is the main issue. I've never been to this sort of meeting before but was impressed by the discussion. I'm also glad that so many riders got to put there point across. I think with the money issue, one way is to join a club and show the interested parties that most of the cost of trail building could come from the users. Witch would then have to be made back through entry fees,race or otherwise.
Another option is a private promoter taking a lease on the land, more $$$$. And could you imagine the bush walkers wearing that
At the moment it is still leagle to ride red hill, with the support we had i don't think that will change any time soon.
It was a very interesting and constructive meeting without any outcome really being decided, registering email addresses i guess creates a forum
I would say there are two views and the moderator really was excellent.
1. The Friends of Narrabeen Lake (FONL) represented by Ken (surname?) in the presentation. These guys do all the bush regen around the lake and catchment and have raised a not insubstantial amount of 1.7m from governments to do the work. The point they make is pure and simple environmental
- The catchment is special with high conservation (enviro and aboriginal) value
- the existing uses and trails are screwing it up further (yes yes irrespective of moto or mtb) and then costing more in destruction and further regeneration work, and there are new illegal trails being built in stupid fall line type places
- I think would prefer nothing but boots however i think they realise bikes arent going away, dont want to lose bush to development and so are offering a kind of peace pipe, if we all work together perhaps we can get a win win
- Can't believe we have a web site promoting the area to the world and contributing to our own demise (sorry Rob) - although they have just created a DVD to do the same thing
2. The MTB view which firstly wants to
- protest its right to ride a bike on singletrack, say that we are a force to be reckoned with due to numbers and argue that sustainable trails and responsible use can be a reality.
- be heard that its not us creating all the erosion and that we are responsible (although anyone riding in Red Hill really needs to have a think about it, those pictures Ken showed on the Cromer Hill are pretty damning despite that they were caused by motos, exacerbated by MTB and water)
- be environmentally responsible and have some places that are fun and challenging to ride
- figure out how this is paid for
thats my take on it and the forum was good, a few people wanted to say what they wanted to say but there were people listening to each other. I particularly liked the Councillor arguing to stop funding the Sea Eagles, %%$^&& politicians!
I introduced myself to Dennis Foley (who was the guy in the film and who gave the aboriginal welcome) as i have read of him previously and he has a really interesting story. He reckoned that bikes (pedal and moto) had done enormous damage to the area in terms of animal life, had caught people riding mtbs over the engraving sites, and saw the evidence of trails being cut (apparently one down into Middle Creek follows one of the old peoples routes unwittingly) but he wasn't against MTBs. He spoke to me of the good MTB stuff being done in the US and suggested that we should push for a site around the closed off car park and park at the top of Red Hill, using the car park and stuff as a facility. This area is lower in conservation value as it was bulldozed during WW2 for radio and other facilities, therefore probably lower environmental concern (my words). He even said he would happily do the heritage assessment and spoke about us seeking to get a lotteries grant? as the FONL had done.
As MTBers we seem to have so many voices, so many people with an opinion and no organised body to be a part of unless MTBA, or IMBA, or MWMTBC or NOBMOB or ...., does something need to be created, is there something in the works, we need to be organised.
Mike Baird commented that the NPWS has a budget allowance for trail building, however, it can only release money upon request from local communities ( not sure exactly who he meant here ) with definite proposals. Basically he was saying that if the various stakeholders can get together to make a proposal for new sustainable trails, he could push for the financing. Someone at the front commented that the NPWS budget had just been slashed though.....
A fair bit of comment was made about the possibility of a future mountain bike park at the waste site near Mona Vale. Needless to say this has been discussed ad infinitum previously with very little tangible progress however, one of the councillors held up a report on it which was released today to the public. They are inviting submissions and comment .... still appears to be 4 years away at least though ( I seem to remember someone saying that it has been 4 years away for at least 12 years !).
I thought the turnout and general demeanour of the mountain bike community was excellent.
I also thought the ' lets work together ' line was heard loud and clear by the people who are most likely to matter.
Be interested to know what others thought.
CB
It was really good to see so many passionate riders show their support last night.
I didn't like how Keb highlighted the illegal trails mapped out here on Nobmob. I didn't say anything at the time because I wasn't 100% sure until I got back online and checked the facts, but If Ken had bothered to check properly he would've seen that these trails are indeed marked and indicated as ILLEGAL. It put Nobmob in an unnecessary bad light.
Ole Ken's speech was full of sensationalism and misrepresentation. Animals with speech bubbles FFS!
I didn't say anything as the discussion was about the Narra Lake Catchment area, not the merits of NoBMoB or other non-NPA supported groups.
Ken used old images off NoBMoB (prior to the closure of Oxford Falls) & to my knowledge without permission. As BT mentioned, he failed to mention that the trails he was referring to on NoBMoB, were marked as illegal and there is a trail status/monitoring tool that highlights trails to avoid due to wet weather etc.
It's a pity that there are still a handful of riders that feel they are exempt from general consensus of not riding in the wet. It provides the anti-MTB mob which such powerful ammunition when discussing sustainable tracks and that MTBers want to do the right thing.
Pretty much every MTBer present at last night's discussion subscribed to the notion that MTBers want to work towards a solution for all and that MTB riders adhere to the basic guidelines of trail use.
If you are someone (or know of mates) that actually believes that your actions i.e riding in the wet, does not impact trail advocacy in any shape or form, please go and have a long hard look in the mirror and ask the question "Who is the idiot that is preventing legal trails from being built/opened on the Northern Beaches?"
Firstly i would like to say a big thumbs up to the two mountain bike speakers Simon and Dave (from memory), top notch job!
You guys really did get the point across in a polite manner which also showed due respect to the thoughts and feelings of Friends of narra/NPA
It was also great to see that a few of us were able to comment and add to the solution. I felt the night went really well, with nearly every Polly backing us!
Even the chairman/presenter was very reasonable toward mountain bikers, and said numerous times we all need to work together.
It was hilarious that a few of the NPA in attendance insisted that we should pay a fee to subsidize sustainable biking tracks, when they have countless millions spent every year on their own sustainable,armored,board-walked walking trails with no walking fee's in sight. Very hypocritical.
Once again the mountain bikers were seen to be generally reasonable, while some (not all) of the environmentalists where seen to be twisting the truth, and sensationalizing!
I want to say thank you to all those level minded environmentalists/members of the public in attendance that put forth sound concerns but where willing to work together and learn that there is a solution: Legal Sustainable purpose built Trails.
Well done, all involved. The argument about some people riding in the wet, on illegal trals, etc. is something that simply cannot really be debate against. In any community there are people who do the wrong thing, it is really only the response from the rest of the community towards this that can be judged and I think this voice is loud, clear and united. it is not on and we are prepared to do what we can do discourage or even outright prevent it in a sensible manner. There is nothing like allowing a group to take ownership for something to motivate them to them to look after it.
At the end of the day, councils deal with sportsgrounds that are closed due to wet conditions still being used for football, rugby, etc. which then does damage to these areas. This does not mean that the majority of users who do the right thing are expected to be penalised for the actions of the selfish few.
I laughed at the uproar from the crowd when Ken showed pictures of the bike jumps and pointed at the MTB folk?? (How out of touch is this guy?) come one Ken; this is a separate issue that could easily be solved by local council, er um.. how about we build the local kiddies a local skate park so they don’t have to build their own up red hill, there’s even a good spot or two for it (the unused lookout up the top of red hill)
There’s no doubt that erosion is and has been a log term problem for the catchment area, resulting in sediment filling of the tributaries into Narrabeen lake. Cr David James speaks of the fact that he can’t paddle his boat like he used to when he was a wee kiddy up middle creek because according to Ken "anything with wheels" has resulted in massive erosion that's caused this sediment build up, yet no mention of strategies that may deal with this ongoing problem ( its never ever going to go away ) like sediment traps and dredging?
The video seems to have missed the dredging part that went on long before anyone at the meeting last night was born, although I'm aware of the damage that past dredging has had on the lake, it would seem that dredging that happened from the early 1900’s through to the 80’s, would have removed a lot of material and may have contributed to Cr David development of the love of "deep water" paddling that he now cant do? (ironic eh?)
A part of the video was focused on Wheeler Creek, yet no mention of the recent legal environmental vandalism that was the grading and filling of the fire trail that runs the length of the track, parallel to the creek, from the top of Maybrook to the carvings that Dennis Foley's ancient relatives carved out, again yet no mention of the hundreds (perhaps thousands?) of tonnes of this “legally placed” fill that have been needlessly washed into Wheeler Creek in the last few weeks? Its such a shame that its considered OK for a bulldozer to come in and contribute on a massive scale to the problems of the catchment, but MTB folk cant build a few environmentally considered single tracks?
however, video productions like the one we saw are not produced overnight and may predate the grading and filling of the fire trail.
Ken Higgs' rant about the fire brigade was amusing, but he has a point and I find myself agreeing.
Pity that he won't let facts or evidence get in the way of his prejudices.
So he fully understands the fun and enjoyment we all have while riding.
Where does he source his information from??????
A sure way to get our ''negative onlookers'' onside....Hmmn just a thought.
emailed the Narrabeen Catchment people today about last nights meeting.
Rather than ranting on here why don't you lot do the same?
But keep it constructive and friendly... just like the MTB people were last night!
[email protected]
Great suggestion, especially keeping it friendly and constructive
There is a lot to learn from these guys especially re. raising money to fund something of benefit to the community
Hi Tony,
I was at the tram-shed last night. I believe in the concept of providing a dedicated facility to take load away from sensitive areas. I'm confident you will be surprised how many riders would assist with some bushcare if it was part of the deal. I think we need the bushcare sector to help us secure a facility. You have more pull. We are 'unstructured'. I just jump on my bike and go riding, once a month I can head north for 1.5 hour drive and do a race and drive home. I tend to ride (from my house) 2-3 times a week.
Before roads and residential development, a creek may be a little trickle a few inches wide. Development occurs. Roofs and Roads then catch and send massive amounts of rainwater straight to the little creek. The sediment washes down in mass over time (from all the little creeks) as the little creeks turn into big creeks from the massive increase in flow. To draw some kind of relationship between MTB riders and silt build up in Narrabeen lagoon is misleading. That video appeared to lead the viewer to think recreation was the cause when in fact it is the development of properties and roads in the catchment. I don't think that was clear in the movie.
Those little lizards with the diamond tail. They live all over my house. They lives on walls. I rarely ever see one on a horizontal surface. I don't think I can remember ever seeing one on a horizontal surface. In fact they tend to be shaded locations on walls. Lean a sheet of ply against a brick wall. Look under in a few days, you are likekly to see one. I live in the jungle, you get familiar with the habits of plants and animals. I know how we ride bikes (where you tend to look). I think it's unlikely to ever run over one.
In my riding I've found and rescued at least 1 turtle, a eastern water dragon stuck in a chicken wire fence (it was too late, ants coming out the mouth), a cockatoo stuck in a tangle of native vine type plants. Point is we are not ecco terrorists as these compulsive exaggerators proclaim. There are 25 local seedlings in the ground immediately behind my house that I planted (and weed) that council provided to me on request. Thats from working in with green groups and having increased awareness of the bushland from riding and living near the bush.
I thought on the way home. "Wow Ken hates us". Then I wondered who "us" in and how that bloke recons Mike's daughter is not a mountain biker (that is a topic in itself - i.e'. his idea of mountain biker which is CLEARLY confused, but scary that articulate people like that guy are sprouting this bent view). Then I thought more about how I talked with Ken after the forum. He must go into bat against all types. He does not like to rank or indicate where MTB fits in relative in regards to impact as other issues. I bet he has a "Hate SlideShow" for all his enemies such as Developers, Rubbish Dumpers, people who won't fund the next war on whoever they want to war with etc.
I think we are far greener than Ken suggests, and I think Ken's approach works well to sabotage opportunity for better relationships between off-road cyclists and bush carers.
Regards,
Happy to Help
Noel
0404 024 208
Hi Tony,
Just wanted to say thanks for the opportunity to participate in the mountain bike forum.
As a mountain biker I learned a quite a bit about the environmental issues in the Narrabeen Lagoon catchment area, especially about the interdependencies between catchment zones.
I’d like to reinforce that as a group, mountain bikers have a lot in common with your interests. Erosion and the environmental consequences are something we are very concerned with. Besides the self-interest of wanting to minimise trail damage, and having fun trails and locations to ride, a major part of the mountain bike experience is being out in a natural setting, seeing local native flora and wildlife in abundance while in the bush. We have no wish to contribute to the degradation of the natural environment.
My interest in ecology and environment would never have germinated without mountain biking, and I believe its growing popularity provides a fertile ground in which you can cultivate further interest in the environmental cause.
Looking forward to hearing from you in the future.
Best,
Name supplied
PS: You may have heard that the ban on parts of Manly Dam circuit has been flipped: it is now walkers who are excluded, not bikers. I’d like to make it clear that this is not an outcome that mountain bikers as a whole support. Our long-held view is that the trails are there to share.
This is Ken, the key speaker on behalf of the "Friends of Narrabeen Lagoon" at the 22-2-10 meeting held with the northern beaches area mountain bike riders, at the Tram Shed Narrabeen with the purpose of each group sharing their concerns with each other and the directions they each wanted to go in......
With time and understanding we will work as one achieving the same goals.
http://youtu.be/A3Mwhf0gg_8
We get a mention from about the 8 min mark!!!!!
Good work capturing that speech.
I bumped into this guy and a second at Red Hill mid-week a few months ago!
I saw them taking photos and stopped for a chat. Ended up talking for 20 - 30 minutes. He was talking about the erosion causing problems with Narrabeen Lagoon and the destruction at Red Hill. I talked about the motor bikes causing the destruction, the minimal impact of MTB and that if managed sustainable trails were built then all these problems would go away.
Interesting times for MTB in general, and I believe it's now getting the exposure it deserves and heading in the right track. All the work lobbying over the last few years is now coming to fruition - many thanks to all involved.
cheers
Loki
Then he must have alzheimer's - we keep telling him about the motos but he forgets or chooses to ignore.