Wow, thanks guys, I didn't realise sharing what I thought was a rather interesting piece of bike engineering (pedal or otherwise) was such an offence here and cause such positive responses. I guess I don't have much to show for lurking around the last 4 years, must've missed it in Forum Etiquette 101.
I'll save you the trouble and move it to OT, or if its still too offensive there do have it trashed for such blasphemy.
ps. judging from the translated info page, pedaling with or without assistance is possible. I believe pedaling is not possible on a motorbike.
pss. would having the battery charged by pedal power first be more acceptable?
Hey, it's nothing personal, but contention with motorbikes on trails and the damage they do being blamed on mountain bike riders makes this a very touchy subject.
See the thread on 'bomber' and other electric bikes.
Hey, it's nothing personal, but contention with motorbikes on trails and the damage they do being blamed on mountain bike riders makes this a very touchy subject.
I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I ride casually and can't say I take much notice of the political tensions. I just have a bike (yes, pedal powered) and ride it carefully where/when its allowed.
Is it just me, or did the rider of that THING not turn a pedal once?
Yep. It looks as though the rider actually turned the pedals not once but almost twice. (no really, at the start of the video it wouldn't make much of a promo video for them if the rider was riding for real)
From a 1200 watt electric engine which is equivalent to many domestic appliances this is quite impressive. Although a motor is not for me, if engineering is advancing to produce bikes with an electric engine which could potetially, for example, become a real replacement for peoples car as an option of travelling to work this is a good thing.
This is more mountain bike than motorbike! It looks like a modified Mtb afterall and would have nowhere near the trail impact of a petrol powered bike.
as stated in the bomber thread, anything over 200w is legally defined as a motorbike and should be registered and licensed to ride it anywhere but private property.
It's all well and good to say "lighten up" when you're not sitting in on the meetings with land managers and councils facing a tirade of misinform guff from NIMBYs at the opposite end of the table who would like nothing more than to see bike riding banned from and area altogether with out the added confusion of some of the bikes in question having motors, pedal assist or not
and what do you think the reaction from the holier than thou "we should be the only ones allowed here" walkers would be on seeing them snaking up the trails under motorised power
I've no problem with these electric motorbikes on private land, so long as they stay there. The reality is they never do.
I've sat at those tables, alongside Rob and others who've been working their butts off in the background. It's dfficult enough trying to get land managers across the line in the face of opposition from some of the more extreme green groups. While we've made huge headway with NPWS, singletrack trail access on their land in Northern Sydney still has a long way to go before becoming a reality.
These things, with 6 times the legal power limit, just give the muppets more ammunition to fight us with!
I didn't want to turn this into a trail advocacy/legality thing. I totally agree with you guys. This thing looks like it's overseas and probably not available in AU anyway...
With the size and cost of batteries and electric motors shrinking every year these kind of bikes are going to become more and more common. Whether or not they are used in accordance with local laws is a separate issue to their validity as a recreational pursuit.
There is no question about the validity of where these sorts of bikes can be used. They are motor bikes and therefore can only be used anywhere a motor bike can be. Moreover, because they are a motor bike they will need registering and insuring unless being ridden on private land.
Technically they are not a "motor bike". They fall somewhere in between the categories in NSW, for example. Under the current RTA definitions they have more power than a power assisted cycle, but don't fit into the Moped definition either. The legislation will catch up one day, much like any evolving technology.
I'm sure one thing you'll agree on is they are a million times better than those damn pocket bikes that thankfully seem to be thinner on the ground lately.
E-bikes: so long as they're <=200W, no problem. They have a place... I suppose.
For those of you thinking we're being overly reactionary and emotional about the impact on trail advocacy ... let me remind you that without being heavily emotionally invested in the sport and committed to it, do you honestly think we'd have stuck it out for years with no apparent signs of progress? I haven't been doing nearly as much as some others, and I still find it wearing.
Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?
Well, sorry... it doesn't work that way. Can't keep your cake and also eat it.
Submitted by brakeburner on Fri, 14/01/2011 - 16:29.
"Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?"
WHAT A CONDESCENDING, SELF RIGHTEOUS PIECE OF CRAP!!!!! CRY ME A RIVER!!!
Massive over reaction to someones thread that has every right to post it on here, i'm not even a fan of those things but , you cannot ignore the fact that the product has been made! a reaction of debate has been had before on the bomber thread, but this, is just a reaction of something you may of stepped in!
"E-bikes: so long as they're <=200W, no problem. They have a place... I suppose."
ok. what about 199w? where's their place? right next to us on the trails! NO of course not.
the point i'm trying to make is if these bikes actually start to make it onto the trails then the issue again should be addressed, we all know this is hard, but maybe you like to borrow time from work, family and riding!! i don't know you well enough, but i feel it's unfair and not a suitable statement to make others seemingly feel guilty over your efforts that you don't like to shout about,that you like to shout about!!!!!
""Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?"
WHAT A CONDESCENDING, SELF RIGHTEOUS PIECE OF CRAP!!!!! CRY ME A RIVER!!!"
The way I see it hawkeye (and the other "over reactors") is right and the following post exemplifies the selfish attitude that I have unfortunately witnessed elsewhere relating to trail advocacy and maintenance.
These bikes have no place on mtb tracks. Have a look at the tracks left at the 0:10 and 0:26 minute marks. At the 0:45 minute mark he can't even stay on the track. I'm putting that down to the increased weight making the bike less manoeuvrable. Advertising how well a bike with one of these can destroy a track by skidding down it around the 1:16 minute mark and on, not to mention that the extra weight means the rider can't lift the rear wheel to jump or bunny hop properly a few seconds earlier. How would local residents react when they see someone with one of these motors ripping up the carpark at a trailhead like at 1:37 minutes. Imagine half a dozen of these going around Manly Dam, Appin, Ourimbah, or any other Sydney track each day and the damage they would do! I can't see the people who would fit these onto their bikes to make their ride easier or faster turning up to track maintenance days to fix the damage they do!
Advertise it as a commuting option for sure, but don't show it riding mtb tracks.
.. if you think that's condescending. All I'm saying is that those involve in trail advocacy are strongly emotionally invested in what they're doing and it is quite unrealistic to expect them not to react with vigor to threats to their long term goals.
I regret mentioning my involvement - it's of almost zero significance anyway compared to the slog others have put in over many years. I'm very much a johnny come lately.
On the other hand, I make no apologies whatsoever for mentioning we are beneficiaries of what they do.
You can't stop people inventing stuff and trying to sell it. The point with this thing is that its NOT an mtb. It's a motorbike that looks a bit like a pushie. Probably should be on dirtbikeworld.net rather than here.
Can't tell from the clip whether its on a mtb track, a moto track, goat track, National park, private property etc. Not much different to a lot of "freeride" mtb clips in terms of apparent impact on the trail. However, because of Nobmob's profile, the fact that it is a public site which is monitored by NPWS, Councils etc and the, shall we say, "delicacy" of access negotiations with NPWS et al, concerned people are entitled to pour a bucket of cold water on this thing on this site.
I absolutely don't disagree with keeping the trails balanced and healthy, I don't think anyone disputes that. No one here is actively supporting these two-wheeled-devices (I will remain terminology neutral here) being used on the trails either.
I just simply adore it for the fine piece of engineering that it is, and shared a video of it.
Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog...
As ugly as that is, that tends to be how the world works sometimes. Before you think any further - I spent over 7 years volunteering for a not-for-profit sport club that grew from ~20 to ~150 members: dealing with administration with the state body, taking it from 150 different personalities, on a good year managing a $15k budget, having 30+ players for half dozen away weekend tournaments a year, weekly league competitions and trainings, it all equates hours and hours after work (and during work) sucked out of my life to keep the it all going behind the scenes (and going to a track was my release!). Believe me when I say I know how it feels when everything you do is taken for granted.
But in the end thats what its all about - I for one am glad that there are people who are and can be more dedicated to the sport than I am so that countless others can enjoy it without the stress or worry and just get to love the sport as they do (well, at least the thought of that was what kept me going). Without people like that everyone in all sorts of sports and activities would be a lot worse off - what would happen on the other end of the scale though? If we can't keep our cake and eat it, should we require every rider to repair a trail before they ride? That would turn most people off the sport altogether bar the completely dedicated. I remember a long time ago there was an idea of introducing a fee to use Manly Dam - regular riders wouldn't mind, but that would close off the sport for many casual and new riders.
But anyway, I digress, a big thumbs up and pat on the back to you guys for the work that you do on the sport's behalf!
(which I think in hindsight, is more than I can say I got for my years of slavery )
But the local "bike shop" next to my work sell electric bikes aswell as the norm?
Surely they'd sell anything bike related that makes them money....just don't let some of the guys see them
Imagine the hell someone would get if they had a freak hobby of liking to charge their nicads by having a dynamo that was driven by their drivetrain going through Manly on a Sunday morning
it aint got leg powered pedals-wrong website to show this crap!!!!
@RobbieO... well said. What a load of cr@p!
Wow, thanks guys, I didn't realise sharing what I thought was a rather interesting piece of bike engineering (pedal or otherwise) was such an offence here and cause such positive responses. I guess I don't have much to show for lurking around the last 4 years, must've missed it in Forum Etiquette 101.
I'll save you the trouble and move it to OT, or if its still too offensive there do have it trashed for such blasphemy.
ps. judging from the translated info page, pedaling with or without assistance is possible. I believe pedaling is not possible on a motorbike.
pss. would having the battery charged by pedal power first be more acceptable?
Hey, it's nothing personal, but contention with motorbikes on trails and the damage they do being blamed on mountain bike riders makes this a very touchy subject.
See the thread on 'bomber' and other electric bikes.
Is it just me, or did the rider of that THING not turn a pedal once?
Lazy man's motorbike. Yuk. Keep them off public trails, please.
I see. Thanks for clearing that up. I ride casually and can't say I take much notice of the political tensions. I just have a bike (yes, pedal powered) and ride it carefully where/when its allowed.
Yep. It looks as though the rider actually turned the pedals not once but almost twice. (no really, at the start of the video
it wouldn't make much of a promo video for them if the rider was riding for real)
Perhaps I'll rename the subject.
From a 1200 watt electric engine which is equivalent to many domestic appliances this is quite impressive. Although a motor is not for me, if engineering is advancing to produce bikes with an electric engine which could potetially, for example, become a real replacement for peoples car as an option of travelling to work this is a good thing.
GOT PEOPLE LIGHTEN UP A BIT.
GOOD VIDIO
It would fun to watch it explode into bits on the Warrimoo DH or Cannonball at Thredbo, provided the rider was ok.
This is more mountain bike than motorbike! It looks like a modified Mtb afterall and would have nowhere near the trail impact of a petrol powered bike.
Interesting vid.
as stated in the bomber thread, anything over 200w is legally defined as a motorbike and should be registered and licensed to ride it anywhere but private property.
It's all well and good to say "lighten up" when you're not sitting in on the meetings with land managers and councils facing a tirade of misinform guff from NIMBYs at the opposite end of the table who would like nothing more than to see bike riding banned from and area altogether with out the added confusion of some of the bikes in question having motors, pedal assist or not
I'd definitely not want to see one hammering around Manly Dam, but for uses as shown in the vid then it would be OK.
I was just comparing it to a trailbike, where to me at least, it's a lot more MTB related.
and what do you think the reaction from the holier than thou "we should be the only ones allowed here" walkers would be on seeing them snaking up the trails under motorised power
Sorry, gotta side with Flynny.
I've no problem with these electric motorbikes on private land, so long as they stay there. The reality is they never do.
I've sat at those tables, alongside Rob and others who've been working their butts off in the background. It's dfficult enough trying to get land managers across the line in the face of opposition from some of the more extreme green groups. While we've made huge headway with NPWS, singletrack trail access on their land in Northern Sydney still has a long way to go before becoming a reality.
These things, with 6 times the legal power limit, just give the muppets more ammunition to fight us with!
Is this what you want?
I didn't want to turn this into a trail advocacy/legality thing. I totally agree with you guys. This thing looks like it's overseas and probably not available in AU anyway...
With the size and cost of batteries and electric motors shrinking every year these kind of bikes are going to become more and more common. Whether or not they are used in accordance with local laws is a separate issue to their validity as a recreational pursuit.
There is no question about the validity of where these sorts of bikes can be used. They are motor bikes and therefore can only be used anywhere a motor bike can be. Moreover, because they are a motor bike they will need registering and insuring unless being ridden on private land.
Technically they are not a "motor bike". They fall somewhere in between the categories in NSW, for example. Under the current RTA definitions they have more power than a power assisted cycle, but don't fit into the Moped definition either. The legislation will catch up one day, much like any evolving technology.
I'm sure one thing you'll agree on is they are a million times better than those damn pocket bikes that thankfully seem to be thinner on the ground lately.
It is an interesting bike.
Silly man you posted it here and didnt check that it complied with trail advcacy rule 2846/65 section C line 3 your mistake.
But the guys are right its not a bicycle I think its a duck in disguise.
Far out good luck boys.
We rave on about pedal powered... But the local "bike shop" next to my work sell electric bikes aswell as the norm?
"The legislation will catch up one day"
it already has. If it's over 200w it needs to be registered and you need to be licensed to ride it on public land.
E-bikes: so long as they're <=200W, no problem. They have a place... I suppose.
For those of you thinking we're being overly reactionary and emotional about the impact on trail advocacy ... let me remind you that without being heavily emotionally invested in the sport and committed to it, do you honestly think we'd have stuck it out for years with no apparent signs of progress? I haven't been doing nearly as much as some others, and I still find it wearing.
Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?
Well, sorry... it doesn't work that way. Can't keep your cake and also eat it.
"Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?"
WHAT A CONDESCENDING, SELF RIGHTEOUS PIECE OF CRAP!!!!! CRY ME A RIVER!!!
Massive over reaction to someones thread that has every right to post it on here, i'm not even a fan of those things but , you cannot ignore the fact that the product has been made! a reaction of debate has been had before on the bomber thread, but this, is just a reaction of something you may of stepped in!
"E-bikes: so long as they're <=200W, no problem. They have a place... I suppose."
ok. what about 199w? where's their place? right next to us on the trails! NO of course not.
the point i'm trying to make is if these bikes actually start to make it onto the trails then the issue again should be addressed, we all know this is hard, but maybe you like to borrow time from work, family and riding!! i don't know you well enough, but i feel it's unfair and not a suitable statement to make others seemingly feel guilty over your efforts that you don't like to shout about,that you like to shout about!!!!!
keep your cake!
You are being overly reactionary and emotional.
Its a cool bike.
Chocolate cake please on my next ride.
""Somehow you want advocates to do the work and the hard slog, borrowing time from work, family and riding themsleves, and yet not call out product development and selfish behaviour that threatens what they're doing on your behalf to gain trail access?"
WHAT A CONDESCENDING, SELF RIGHTEOUS PIECE OF CRAP!!!!! CRY ME A RIVER!!!"
The way I see it hawkeye (and the other "over reactors") is right and the following post exemplifies the selfish attitude that I have unfortunately witnessed elsewhere relating to trail advocacy and maintenance.
These bikes have no place on mtb tracks. Have a look at the tracks left at the 0:10 and 0:26 minute marks. At the 0:45 minute mark he can't even stay on the track. I'm putting that down to the increased weight making the bike less manoeuvrable. Advertising how well a bike with one of these can destroy a track by skidding down it around the 1:16 minute mark and on, not to mention that the extra weight means the rider can't lift the rear wheel to jump or bunny hop properly a few seconds earlier. How would local residents react when they see someone with one of these motors ripping up the carpark at a trailhead like at 1:37 minutes. Imagine half a dozen of these going around Manly Dam, Appin, Ourimbah, or any other Sydney track each day and the damage they would do! I can't see the people who would fit these onto their bikes to make their ride easier or faster turning up to track maintenance days to fix the damage they do!
Advertise it as a commuting option for sure, but don't show it riding mtb tracks.
.. if you think that's condescending. All I'm saying is that those involve in trail advocacy are strongly emotionally invested in what they're doing and it is quite unrealistic to expect them not to react with vigor to threats to their long term goals.
I regret mentioning my involvement - it's of almost zero significance anyway compared to the slog others have put in over many years. I'm very much a johnny come lately.
On the other hand, I make no apologies whatsoever for mentioning we are beneficiaries of what they do.
You can't stop people inventing stuff and trying to sell it. The point with this thing is that its NOT an mtb. It's a motorbike that looks a bit like a pushie. Probably should be on dirtbikeworld.net rather than here.
Can't tell from the clip whether its on a mtb track, a moto track, goat track, National park, private property etc. Not much different to a lot of "freeride" mtb clips in terms of apparent impact on the trail. However, because of Nobmob's profile, the fact that it is a public site which is monitored by NPWS, Councils etc and the, shall we say, "delicacy" of access negotiations with NPWS et al, concerned people are entitled to pour a bucket of cold water on this thing on this site.
I absolutely don't disagree with keeping the trails balanced and healthy, I don't think anyone disputes that. No one here is actively supporting these two-wheeled-devices (I will remain terminology neutral here) being used on the trails either.
I just simply adore it for the fine piece of engineering that it is, and shared a video of it.
As ugly as that is, that tends to be how the world works sometimes. Before you think any further - I spent over 7 years volunteering for a not-for-profit sport club that grew from ~20 to ~150 members: dealing with administration with the state body, taking it from 150 different personalities, on a good year managing a $15k budget, having 30+ players for half dozen away weekend tournaments a year, weekly league competitions and trainings, it all equates hours and hours after work (and during work) sucked out of my life to keep the it all going behind the scenes (and going to a track was my release!). Believe me when I say I know how it feels when everything you do is taken for granted.
But in the end thats what its all about - I for one am glad that there are people who are and can be more dedicated to the sport than I am so that countless others can enjoy it without the stress or worry and just get to love the sport as they do (well, at least the thought of that was what kept me going). Without people like that everyone in all sorts of sports and activities would be a lot worse off - what would happen on the other end of the scale though? If we can't keep our cake and eat it, should we require every rider to repair a trail before they ride? That would turn most people off the sport altogether bar the completely dedicated. I remember a long time ago there was an idea of introducing a fee to use Manly Dam - regular riders wouldn't mind, but that would close off the sport for many casual and new riders.
But anyway, I digress, a big thumbs up and pat on the back to you guys for the work that you do on the sport's behalf!
(which I think in hindsight, is more than I can say I got for my years of slavery
)
Surely they'd sell anything bike related that makes them money....just don't let some of the guys see them
Imagine the hell someone would get if they had a freak hobby of liking to charge their nicads by having a dynamo that was driven by their drivetrain going through Manly on a Sunday morning
Thanks for the clarification sunny.
The cake and eating metaphor seems to have turned into the Magic Pudding.... everyone is taking a bite.
I recon just delete the thread. It's off topic, wrong site.