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Schwalbe: TL snakeskin or Tubeless?
NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.
Never being one to turn away from saving a bit of weight on the bike, especially in the rotating mass wheel dept I'm thinking of replacing my tubeless Schwalbe Ro Ro / Ra Ra's with their latest, lighter TL ready versions when they are worn out.
As the normal TL Schwalbes are a bit delicate, especially in the sidewall dept I'm tempted to go for the snakeskin versions however I have heard that this addition makes the whole tyre stiffer with less compliance to the surface. In other words a different feel & possibly less grip.
Any thoughts/experience with this out there? These tyres aren't cheap.
Cheers
.
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I've been running both tyres for years. Snakeskin is the business. No more sidewall cuts...still sticks like a booger.
I run the RR on snakeskin Tubless on the rear. The front I run standard TL ready as tubeless. I've not had punctures on the rear. Nor any obvious pressure loss due to tyre Burps.
However I have burped the front tyre a few times now. Thats only because I didn't check tyre pressure before I went out. probably hit something too hard.
It had been a few weeks since I checked the pressure last time.
So it all depends on what setup you want. lightness is not always best. propper UST will most likely be a very reliable set up. Without much maintenance.
In my case where I'm running TL ready tyre set up is probbly not quite as reliable as the propper tubeless.
Thanks for the feedback guys, so far the proper USTs have proved very reliable & airtight so I think that I'll stick with them.
Cheers. T
I have a set of rims with the UST ron/ralph combo. My other set of wheels has a TL snakeskin that sealed like a full UST and as far as I can tell behaves the same. The TL ron on the front was a pain to seal and still leaks air regularly. I race the lighter tyres.
Hi PS. Can you please clarify.
I think that you are saying that the TL snakeskin version went up ok and behave the same way as the proper USTs & you race them as they are lighter. But are you also saying that the TL snakeskin Ron front regularly leaks?
If so this is similar to what I've found with all of the TL ready tyres that I've tried, they go up but lose pressure through the sidewalls even with sealant.
Cheers T
The Ron I use on the front is just a TL evo (Art. No 11600071) so its lighter than a snakeskin or UST. I think a lot of people run the lighter version of tyres on the front because you dont seem to get as many sidewall issues with a front tyre. Only punctured it once by pinch flatting when I forgot to check the pressure in a 24hr teams race. It ended up sealing itself and haven't had any troubles since and I have raced it in some pretty rocky locations.
The TL Snakeskin Ralph on the back holds air like a full UST. When riding I cant tell the difference between it and the full UST version but maybe thats just me being old and vague. It is 175g lighter though.
Hi Tony - which bike do you have RaRa's on? The 29r? I find I couldn't get them to stick, front or rear, on pea gravel and breaking on steep downhills was a nightmare for me, so took them off the S-works and put them on the HT Stumpy 29r, with Rohloff. But if you and others using them in the hills and on the KC then maybe I should persevere. So which bike they on and do you use them on pea gravel?
Hi Oldernslower
My questions earlier were all about the 26" versions as 29" full USTs don't seem to exist in either Schwalbe or Conti range yet.
That said, I do have Schwalbe 29" 2.25 TL versions of the Ron & Ralphs on my 29er race wheels & have been pleased with the grip & control (I run the fronts the wrong way as they break out in a more controlled manner). On Stans Crest rims they went up ok but did leak air through the walls & around the valves until I re-taped them with FRM tape & used contact sealant around the valve bases. The sidewalls sealed properly afer a few rides.
That said, for normal riding in the hills I use the heavy but bulletproof Maxxis Ardent2.25/Crossmark 2.1 full UST combo on another set of wheels. I don't think that the Schwalbe TLs would last very long up there although they are noticeably faster.
Thanks for the TL evo & Snakeskin info. From what you've said I think that I'll have to try the Snakeskins front & back as I'll save weight over the full USTs & theyll be tougher than the lighter but more delicate TL only evo's.
Cheers
T
I'm interested to hear peoples' opinions on the differences in merit between the Nobby Nic and Rocket Ron as a front.
Have been running the NN for over a year and have found them inconsistent. Usually good, but prone to wash out unexpectedly with no recovery (witness busted collarbone). At least the ole Maxxis Ignitor never dumped me on the ground.
Is the RoRo any better? I hear the Hans Dampf is outstanding but I'm not sure I want to run a real 2.4 on the front - not sure it would even fit.
IMHO on the front the Nic is the more hardcore & the Ron is lighter & possibly faster.
I have run Schwalbe for ages now & now run both versions up front in what looks like the right direction but is wrong according to the sidewall. This seems to cure their habit of suddenly breaking away & gives a more catcheable drift (To me anyway)!
Ive also been told good things about the Hans Dampf but havent tried it yet due to its heft.
RR's have less grip than the NN in anything apart from hardpack (where you aint never going to wash out anyway), but because they have less overall grip it should be more progressive, and you'll be going a whole lot slower
The Nobby nics I find depend on those side knobs, so its when the bike is turning but not leaned over that they give way a bit easier - so you have to lean the bike below you to engage the side knobs more and get off the centre knobs that are for efficient rolling but a bit less aggressive for grip. If you keep the bike in the same plane as the rider like 95% of people, then you want more aggressive tread in the centre like the hans dampf/ignitor/ardent
hoping that sort of makes sense, and my 2cents
Thanks Tony. Yeah, I took a close look at the edge lug orientation and for the last NN front I installed on my race wheelset I reveresed direction so the side of the edge lug faced into the slide instead of the end (if that description makes sense?).
It definitely felt more hooked up when I ran it at the Mont, but I wasn't sure if that was the change I'd made or the "hero dirt" levels of grip we enjoyed for the race.
Haven't run that wheelset since that race. Maybe I should swap it over to the trail wheelset and give it one more go before binning the brand.
Slightly off subject.
My Nobbly Nick has plenty of tread left. But the side nobs on the edges look like toast in the inside edge. errr just ripped & generally abused. The outside of the nobs is still in good shape. When is it considered toast?
Or when is it time to put that tyre on the spare bike?
My RaRa snakeskin looks the worse for wear after last night..... 2 snakebites (4 x 1/4" cuts) at the rim edge after hitting a wheel eating rock
Can't complain that the tyre failed considering the damage done to a P35 rim.
EDIT:
Correction 1; this tyre was an EVO Tubeless ready......not snakeskin
Correction 2; I owe Mr Schwalbe an apology and retraction..... there were actually no cuts to sidewall even though the rim looked like this http://nobmob.com/node/37724 It was just Stan's leaking out where the rim was bent. Tyre aired up first time on the new wheel, and held air, without any goop......
Stan - FWIW IMO consider putting them on the spare bike when the tyres start sliding at your normal speeds on your normal riding surface, and/or your edge grip and/or centre grip is reduced and they are slipping more and grip seems to be hiding. When the tyre centre tread is 75% gone - unless its slipping before then, depends a lot on trail surface. When the treads knobs biting edge are badly rounded (when in contact with ground thats the trailing(rear) edge rear tyre and leading(front) edge front tyre). Leading edge on front as that provides the breaking grip. Some fanatics err enthusiasts, have been known to recut both front and rear treads so as to provide a better 'bite' under breaking. The sponsored riders tend to put new tyres on for each event, especially enduros. But to restate it - depends a lot on trail surface.
Like the song says - when they "slippin and a slidin, creepin and a hidin"
Oldernslower....thanks for hat.
I kissed the tarmack this morning. I was on a transport stage between tracks. For locals , Between Manly Dam & Cascades. I could just feel the loosing grip on the front wheel around a corner, and your post above imediately sprung to my mind in an split second. Initially I thought I'd saved it and I was going to stop & check the side tread. But then I had to keep going around the corners & I could feel the tyre letting go. Oh well....I crashed to the ground doing a fair speed. Lost some skin & yadi da di da.
But he point is for everyone else considering Tubless Ready tyres from Schwalbe. The standard ones need attention every now and again. The snake skins a TL ready need less attention. And of course the the propper UST ones are probably the best for tubeless. geees I'm sure everyone could have told me that before. LOL
however,
I burped my front tyre a few weeks ago because I hadn't checked the pressure. But because I'm sometimes a little lazy I just pumped it up again. to get home and a few rides since then. I've been meaning to take the tyre off & make sure the bead is correctly seated & check it , but I ingnored it.
So the reason for todays intermate moment with the tarmack in Frenches Forest was because I'd been lazy. Most likely, the bead on the tyre wasn't set correctly and I must have got an extra hole in the sidewall along the Golf Course wiggle. There fore lost pressure. But not enough to really notice it until it was too late.
So If you choose to have lightweight tyres & TL ready. Don't be like me. Don't be bloody lazy. keep maintaining it & when you do burp it. Reset the bead make sure you have no leaks. or get the proper tyres.
end rant> LOL
On that note, it seems TL ready tyres generally should not be run at as low a pressure as regular UST tyres.
My Nobby Nic 2.25 UST tyres were sketchy at anything above 25psi, and good sometimes as low as 22-23 sometimes. So when I put on some of these Rubena tubeless ready tyres to write a review on, I set them at the same pressures I'd been running the Schwalbes.
The front has felt a little less than fully planted the last couple of weeks, which I put down to the narrower bag (2.1" as measured) and rounded profile of the Kratos front.
Well, an interesting thing happened last weekend. I burped the front tyre rolling those rocks straight after 19th Hole but managed to save the OTB. I brushed the side of one of the rocks, and not that hard. Eventually I managed to get the bead to stop leaking and re-seat properly at around 30psi, where I left it for the rest of the ride.
It felt much better - more solid and less wallowy - at the higher pressure.
Sure, it's a sample size of 1, but I don't think I'll be straying down quite that low again with pressures on these tyres with their thin flexy sidewalls... potential consequences of a sudden pressure loss aren't something I want to dwell on.
Hawkeye, it might just be the volume rather than the sidewalls. you should always run more pressure in a narrower tyre - my example is going from a 2.2 to a 1.9 in a rear - dinted the rim in the 1.9 and put a bit of a buckle in it because i was running 26psi - needs 32psi i think. Think in terms of road tyres as well, as you get narrower psi goes up.
Yea The standard TL ready Nobbly Nick feels fantastic & grippy around 26 PSI. But it's just not enough when doing any slightly faster speed around Manly Dam. At that pressure Ive burped it a few times with disastrous results. I usually bring it up to 30-32 and I've not had a problem.
Rode at Red hill on the weekend & copletely toasted my front tyre. Rip in the side wall. oh well. The side nobs were toast anyway.
the tyre lasted me just on 12 mths.
the rear one ( RaRa) has only lasted me 6 months. It was brand new at this years Mont. but the side tread is virtually non existant now.
I've got the pace star compound. been very happy with the grip. Is there that much difference between the compounds?
2:1 life is about normal. That sounds reasonable. Wear depends on where you ride most: some places are a lot more abrasive than others.
I had a good run with the NN/RR overlast few years running tubeless - except the sidewalls gave up. Just got the NN/RR TL snakeskin, and the NN inflated easily, but just cannot get the RR to inflate. Used extra soapy water and compressor and tlc.
Should I add rim tape to closeup the rim/tyre gap? or are there any suggestions out there.
I need speed for the Fling!
R
remove valve and use air gun.. needs more air..
that works for me
A few tricks:
If you're using a tape & valve retro kit an extra layer of tape can help push the bead towards the rim hook.
Leave the tyre out in the sun to get nice & compliant before fitting it.
Remove the valve core as mentioned earlier so that you get a real blast of air into the tyre.
Strap the outside of the tyre so that it's pushed against the rim rather than sagging.
I've also simply given up & had a beer then returned to the tyre later & found the sealant has become tacky & then sealed.
Fit a tube for a few days then carefully remove the tube & try again, the tyre moulds into the rim during that time & seals better.
They can sometimes be a bitch & messy but my recent changes have all been surprisingly trouble free.
T
I find the odd RaRa that is hard to start so I start the bead on one side by hand then lay the wheel over with the loose side down. Works every time...... except for the next RaRa I have to inflate.
I've just inflated a RR & a NN on a floor pump.
RR took like 5 secs to grip.
NN took like 5 min of furious pumping. LOL...
But the problem was I didn't have enough soap beads on the tyre. It makes a cube difference.
I m not sure if too much soapy water reduces the performance of the sealant or not but I guess you can always inflate the tyre once without the sealent & the re do it with sealant. It always seals easier 2nd time around.
I'm off my NN's. I ran a 2.4 EVO on the front tubeless for ages, knobs are pretty worn, but the tyre although it felt good if you really leant the bike over hard, it was very unpredictable. As said, once it goes, it goes...
I recently put on a performance series Hans Damf in 2.35. Man!! What a difference! So predictable, if it's going to slide, you can start to feel it, and you get a chance to dig the front in, or drag a bit of brake what ever you want, but you get warning. I put the 2.4NN on the rear after removing my slick Crossmark (the center tread was all but gone and the side knobs have been missing for some time. I couldn't believe it when the NN had less grip... So I'm going to smash this NN up on the rear and put another CM on as it's wear characteristics vs it's grip is very good.
I did find the HD a bit loose in gravel, but nothing too bad. As most of my riding on this particular bike is AM and tech, I'm thinking of going back to the ol' faithful Big Betty freeride for the front. It was such a good tyre on my 6 and my parker that I used for 4X and DS.
As for RR, I use the performance series RR's on my XC bike. On XC tracks like Ourimbah, it's pretty good. Not the best, but still adequate, and the rolling resistance or lack thier off is sensational and negates any slight loosness. Other tracks like Mt Annan and Stromlo, that have more of the hard pack style surface. The RR is pretty hard to beat for me. You can really push them hard and they still hang on. I always check the pressures in them before I ride, but I like to have them set right, for grip and so my SLR's stay reasonably safe.
Re lack of grip - the pacestar compound on Nobby nics seems to age - not unlike performance car tyres. My front one had maybe 30% wear, but was washing out much more than it used to, so i replaced with a new one - same everything apart from being new - and there is a huge increase in grip. Previously I had so much wash out, that I'd learnt to let the front slide a little, then put a little weight on it to recover.
All new tyres should be way better than the ones they are replacing - the question is new versus new, or of longevity is important to you, then old versus old - i reckon old versus old doesnt matter as much on the rear , but grip on the front sure helps the crash to ride ratio.
interesting point Pharmboy. Ive been involved with car cubs & production sports racng as well as weekend warrierors touge drivers along the old pac at night.( as well as putty & eny exciting road around any mountain range around Sydney)
tyre compounds avail to the public have diversified incredebly in the last 15 years.....I guess the trend with Schwalbe appears to be the same. In a sense, that something that was only available to the elite a few years ago is now available to the general weekend warrior.
I've found Ive needed to rely on grippy tyres to drive my car to the best of my ability. That includes track time as well at some mountain road in the back of nowhere. I never cut the grade as a racing driver. perhaps because i had to rely on my tyres too much to stay on the road. Now I rely on the grip of my bike tyes to keep me upright. LOL
the realitys of life.....
the reason I havent cut the grade with the Elites.....is because I'm too old now LOL.
Its a stark reality.
Same used to happen with the "japanese rubber" foam slicks when I used to race the nitro powered model cars. Fresh rubber was always stickier and wore better, and it showed up dramatically in lap times. I used to store mine in ziplock bags in a black plastic box to minimise oxidisation.
If like me you like to have spares on hand in case you damage one, keeping the unmounted foldable tyres in a sealed lightproof container before use certainly helps retain their freshness. The race wheelset I hang up in the black insulated Mavic wheel bags. They still seem to be in good condition even though they've been unused for 6 months.