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Do you ride without a Camelbak?
Don't you need to carry more than a single water bottle? What about spares? You don't usually have saddle packs or jerseys with pockets either.
I ride in WA, mostly the Kalamunda Circuit with an extension loop that totals about 43km, so I carry 3 litres of water for the 3 hour'ish ride plus a bottle if its hot. I also carry some spares and tools because walking out wouldn't be much fun.
And yet I see plenty of decent riders on decent bikes blissfully unencumbered, and frankly, it makes me kind of jealous, particularly when you blast past me uphill.
So how do you do it? Do you not need to drink much? Are you just riding a short loop? Do you have team support handing you bottles? (Joke).
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They probably haven't yet learned that "walking out is not much fun".
I can do 25km's(not non stop) at Glenrock on a single 500ml bottle if below 30c as in summer a Camelback is too hot for me!!
I reckon keeping myself hydrated is better for my performance at the time and my recovery.
I've always raced with a Camelbak too, albeit just with a smaller bladder, and the tube, levers, Co2, and car keys in my jersey.
I also use 500ml - 1L per hour and make ample use of my 3L camelbak.
I often do 2 "extended" laps of KC. 25km each, but I do stop at the car to get more fuel, lights etc.
As said, keeping hydrated and fueled greatly helps recovery so you can do another 50km tomorrow.
I think a lot of faster riders may be doing less distance, having more breaks and don't have to back it up the next day.
That's my excuse, but I'm also not usually getting passed. Not up hills anyways.
I prefer riding light if poss & did an extended Kal circuit loop today (32km) using a small 1.5 ltr Camelback but this was mainly because my LT bike has no bottle holder.
I often do a couple of hours or an unextended lap on one lge bottle. Tools are in a small saddle pack. I also usually down another bottle about 10 mins prior to riding.
Last weekend doing the Dusk till Dawn I actually wondered what the riders carried in their seemingly huge back packs . With 13.5 km /45 min laps surely minimal fluid & spares are necessary.
T
The extra 600g of the MULE NV is well worth it over the regular MULE. Much better ventilation.
I rode yesterday morning at Awaba sans Camelbak wth just a bottle and it was much more comfortable, but I go through a 750ml bottle an hour and if the ride is going to be any longer, in temperatures like this weekend's (mid 30s) I'd be in trouble.
You'll still be hotter with the NV but it will be bearable.
For longer rides (eg, 60km loop to and around Terrey Hills) the CB is a must, need to carry a couple of bottles of nutrition in addition to the one on the bike, otherwise I bonk. It's also a bit far to walk home in carbon soled shoes.
one of the benefits of a hardtail - two bottle cage mounts!
Yep, no arguments there!
I don't understand these companies who seem to think skipping a bottle cage altogether is a good idea (Ellsworth, new Yeti SB95, etc) especially on XC/Enduro bikes that will be used in events or raced.
One 750 for me for a 90min ride, but I always drink about 500ml a few minutes before I leave home or the car in summer . But I don't sweat near as much as most people I ride with. - riding in city bush, like glenrock, it's not real difficult to refill your bottle during a ride anyway
Depends where I'm going and what I'm doing. If it's a quick, fast blast I find a camel pack too hot to bother with and normally just head out with a bidon and a compression bandage in the pocket, and haven't been taking spares or tools lately(cursing my self here I know....). note our local trails are pretty contained and close to home and while I haven't had to walk home for a while(touching wood and throwing salt and stuff) it's not a huge issue to do so.
If it's a longer ride in back country the extra carry space is worth the hassle of a pack with tools and spares.
I sometimes do 100km+ using just a bottle but only round the northern beaches.
I know where all the fill up points are and fill up even if I'm half full.
On hot days or out of town rides a backpack is usually a must.
It seems I might have an unusually big thirst then. I wonder if being 40, 84kg, and only coming back to riding about 2 years ago makes a difference. Oh for when I was 25-30, weighed 68kg, and was winning National Sport races in the UK.
I have a Coke on the way in the car and a bottle on the way back after the ride, but I usually have a bit left in the bladder, and if I carry a bottle I may pour it over myself if it's over 35 degrees. I also carry 2 bottles on my road bike which gives me 2-3 hours.
I do ride Rocky Balboa 3 times on my usual extended KC loop though, so the final time up when I'm on my final push to Black Stump might be when an unencumbered, perhaps fresh, rider overtakes me.
I have finally managed to ditch the camelbak, but you still need to keep well hydrated - although i am a bit of a camel.
Before races or a long ride I will make sure that I have drank alot of water on the days leading up to and the hours immediately before.
I usually take one 750ml bottle, but for a longer more remote ride, will take a second bottle (electrolyte) in my middle jersey pocket.
Tools/tube in another pocket, nutrition in the 3rd pocket.
Its taken a bit of balancing out but this seems to get me through most 100 kers on even the hottest day.
If there is a drink stop within 50km, I will ditch the second bottle.
Also - as soon as you finish the ride, have another bottle waiting, as a post ride drink.
I think fitness comes into it, but also proper hydration levels to start with and als efficient use of water by the body.
I'm 39 and 95kg
I know when I was younger and thinner I use to go through at least 1 bottle per lap and be very thirsty at the end. Beforehand I'd gulp down some water and end up peeing a lot before the race,
Now I sip water in the hr before the race( get it in slow and let it absorb rather than just fill the bladder and pee it all back out.)
I find I have most of the bottle left at the end of a 4 or 5 lap race and am not that thirsty afterwards either.
A side benefit of a camelbak is the back protection they provide when you go OTB.
Obviously this isn't intentionally part of the design, but the protection is definitely there. At Red Hill a while ago, I went flying OTB and landed hard on my back on sydney sandstone. Very thankful I was wearing a camelback 2/3 full of water.
Wearing a Camelback raises your center of gravity and causes you to go OTB in situations where you wouldn't if the water was in water bottles on the frame. A 3 litre camelback adds 3kg to the highest part of your body. The same thing is noticeable with people paddling surf skis in the Avon Descent, it makes them less stable.
The Fling was my first race using bottle. I loved not having the camelbak but I'll still use it depending on the race.
The highest part of your body?
I don't know about you, but my camelbak is on my back, not my head
The bulk of the water naturally collects around elbow height for me, and 3kg... Assuming im 70kg riding weight, that adds less than 5%, albeit 2/3 of the way up my body. If I were racing for a world cup, yeah, big deal, but most people just want to have some fun out there.
So maybe I need to add water loading to my previous night's carbo loading? Instead of beer loading!
For those blessed with the thirst of a camel, do you regularly indulge in coffee and beer? Perhaps I'm dehydrated to start with normally, or need salt to improve my water efficiency?
When I have raced with just a bottle I haven't drunk it all either, but that's more because it can hard getting the opportunity. Often you'll see the Expert and Elite riders grab, swig, and drop their bottle going through the feed zone.
All that said though, 1.5-2 hours is doable at a stretch, but 3 hours or longer I reckon you need more water just like you should be eating. If memory serves, your sugar stores get used up within about 45-60 minutes and then you're in endurance mode energy wise. Fitness could play a role here of course in relative effort or how hard you tend to ride. For myself I only stop once to eat an energy bar about half way through, so I'm probably close to my Vo2 threshold most of the ride.
Unless you have been tested, you have no way of knowing your exact VO2 (lactate) threshold.
Mine is 172bpm or ~90% of my max. In theory I should be able to ride at that rate all day.
For my age (31), below ~142bmp Im using O2 to burn fat. From that up im burning glycogen (a main fuel source). Muscles can store up to 2 hours of glycogen. Don't eat or drink, and regardless of your fitness you WILL hit the wall. You can prolong this by spending less time in the higher anaerobic zone, and more in the lower fat burning aerobic. Ie. Ride slower
Caffeine will dehydrate you, but can also increase mental acuity. Having a coke after is ok, but before a non sprint event is just asking for trouble. Better off avoiding processed sugars where you can.
And beer? Carbs in beer are great for carbo loading or getting fat. Unfortunately, cycling being a physiological based sport, alcohol is one of the worst things you can consume.
Anyway, I cycle its to get fitter and have fun. Extra weight doesn't bother me, it just makes me stronger, and keeping fuelled means I can ride harder for longer.
Jeronimo, if you really want to know, the AIS site has heaps of tested methods for endurance sports- what's bullshit, what's rumor and what actually works in a lab test .
Given this topic is about water, it's worth mentioning that the professional athletes at the ais start hydrating 1 hr before the event only- your kidneys are fantastic bits of gear and will process excess water in no time . How hard you are riding relative to your FTP or lt will effect how much you sweat, so one moderately fit guy can do 100km on 2 bottles in 6hrs, but someone with the same speed but better fitness might bang out 5hrs but use 4litres ie he can operate at threshold for 5hours.
So water used depends on how hard you are going as well as for how long
One way of estimating hydration needs/fluid loss:- weigh self immediately before exercise (eg 70kg), weigh self immediately after exercise (69kg), subtract amount of fluid ingested during exercise (eg 2 litres) work out fluid loss = 3 litres in this eg) (70-(69-2) = 3 litres). Fluid loss in this example with 2ltr intake was about about 1.4%. For a more detailed explanation see: http://www.hydralyte.com/sports-dehydration
EG. sweat rate can be around 1.2 litres per hour depending.
Dehydration symptoms by % of body fluid lost, note a 1% loss in body weight can reduce VO2 max.
(for a 70kg person 1% = loss of 0.7kg, 2% = 1.4kg)
1% Few symptoms no thirst, but a reduction in VO2 max.
2% Thirst starts, endurance capacity reduced.
3% Mouth Dry, performance impaired.
It gets worse the more you lose and don't replace.
For an overview of hydration based on current research see: http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factshee...
And for Effective hydration strategies see: http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factshee...
A short MTB specific sheet at: http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factshee...
For a more detailed coverage see: http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/dehydration-in-s... especially the last section.
HTH
Perhaps I'm misremembering the sugar stores available, but I had thought that was part of the challenge of XC racing, an effort beyond what's available to complete the race distance.
Anyhow, I'm more interested in the threshold notion, or what I remember of it at least. No, I haven't been tested, I'm just going on what I remember of my old heart rate numbers and understanding of interval training and heart rate creep, especially when you're hot. 10 years ago my heart rate would average about 178 in a race and max in the low to mid 190s. I don't have a heart rate monitor anymore, but based on the 220 minus your age ready reckoner my max would be only 180, my threshold 162, and my aerobic 144. Whatever the reality, it's going to be a big difference, especially as I weigh far more now.
Mountain biking with its high power efforts dictated by the terrain and adrenalin inducement is akin to interval training. If you don't stop and you make frequent anaerobic efforts you heart rate might not reduce down out of anaerobic territory when your effort is low. This is a function of fitness though. Placing yourself in this zone makes you fitter and the fitter you are the harder it is to place yourself in it and remain in it because you recover faster. If you don't recover out of the anaerobic zone as frequently it's also likely your heart rate will creep up for the same effort, particularly if conditions are hot.
So I'd say enjoy the ease of performance while you're young, never let yourself go for years if you want to remain fast when you get older, and accept the deterioration in your performance when you get just a little bit older might be quite startling. Furthermore I guess it's mostly as I thought, but I am amazed at how little some of you need to drink, which adds a new reason to be jealous of you.
You've inspired me.
Say hi if you see someone weighing themselves in the car park...I might not be joking.
My current regimen is maintaining my weight when I could be sweating it off, breaking my muscle fibres, and getting lighter, stronger, and fitter into the bargain. What's a little heat stroke at 30kph?
Joking aside, thanks for your thoughts, ideas, and some great links. It's what makes a forum worthwhile.
i ride the KC most weekends, usually at least two laps. i typically ride with two 750ml bottles, one in the cage and one in the jersey. i have a spare tube taped to my seat post and pump on the frame with my multitool, tyre levers and phone in my jersey. recently i've started just leaving the second bottle at the car and switching them on the way through. i seem to be able to get through a fast lap on one bottle but we'll see as it warms up. we occasionally do a race-style 3 lapper and for that i just have all the bottles i need under the car and switch them over on the way through.
the biggest disadvantage i find with camelbaks is that you can't meter your intake very well.
Actually you can. CamelBak Flow Meter http://bit.ly/UlF423
It works really well.
That's kind of cool and ridiculous at the same time. My measure is that my pack gets lighter as I ride!
I hadn't considered the possibility of drinking too much with a Camelbak though. They're sold on the premise that you sip frequently before you feel thirsty, as per the percentages quoted above.
It's an interesting thought though, and come to think of it my mid ride stop involves a natural break. That said, I'll happily swig half a bottle a time when I'm on my road bike, which suggests I'm thirsty by that point.
I prefer to wear one of these....
I find it holds more liquid, and also keeps me warm in the winter. Do get a few issues with high centre of gravity though as mentioned above...
Those flow meters are crap. I tried one and it wasn't very accurate.