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Trails 4 Us
Well it seems like New Zealand is leading the way when it comes to cycle tourism. The New Zealand government and its local councils have made a commitment of $80 million to build off road cycling trails. They are already leading the way in cycle tourism and are going to attract even more riders.
I would like to see some commitment from the state government to create some awesome mountain bike parks in Western Australia, we have a fantastic climate that allows for riding off road throughout the year and a need to attract tourist to Western Australia. It seems like the building of trails is left up to volunteers to apply for funding, tender for contractors to construct the trails and to manage the building of the trails. As mentioned these people are volunteers who commit a lot of personal time to get trails built which I think should be the government’s responsibility as the government will benefit in the long run.
I have seen numerous strategic plans, development protocols, sustainability frameworks, trail hubs plans and master plans for off road cycling but they just seem to vanish into obscurity.
What do you think, do you want bigger trail networks, do you want hundreds of kilometre of sweet single track, do you think the government should become proactive and commit to building trails that will benefit the health of the people and the economy of Western Australia?
Have a look at the link below, We are being left behind.
http://www.nzcycletrail.com/big-idea
Cheers
Big Dreamer.
[Mod. moved to Australia as this is a lesson for all states]
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How many strategic plans have you seen for WA, state or regional?
Have you read them?
The volunteer group kick starting the process must get all the thanks so far. The govt will step in and take over, its a matter of when, not if.
Wal are you willing to nominate a date that the Government will start the process to build trails? I would like your opinion as you seem to have had a lot of contact with government departments regarding trails. The reason I put the topic up was to see what other people think after I met an ex DEC employee who maintained tracks, trails and huts and he told me how much they have been cutting back. The state government has cut the guts out of DECs funding so I can’t see them contributing and with less and less employees in the areas related to tracks and trails it’s not a priority so I don’t think it is going to happen.
Expect to see significant reduction in funding by all of the State Government's over the next few years. They are all addicted to Stamp Duty revenues, but with falling sales volumes, they are all finding themselves in untenable financial positions. Unfortunately, funding to Departments like DEC, OEH etc will always be the first to lose funding for non core projects, like MTB trails. Some local councils may be able to fund soda trails, but the majority of the work will fall back to clubs and volunteer groups.
NZ were lucky, instead of a Goverment giving out $900 to allow every bogan to purchase a trip to Bali, they invested heavily in infrastructure such as the the trails network.
Your right.
Personally I dont believe we should be relying on DEC for trail funding/building/planning, as DEC are not a MTB club. They are just basically land managers and do a good job at it.
I dont believe we should be relying on DSR/lotteries west solely for funding, as there are so many other funding sources out there that get bypassed and ignored. Especially on a national level.
Cut out DEC and DSR and look further abroad for answers to a better trail networks and I feel the comeback with success will be easier. This will help with a more unified group of mtb clubs/trail advocating clubs(which there seems to be a lot in the SW)
Currently the push for trails is from the bottom up starting with volunteers/trail fairies seeking decent trails in every single shire. One way or another the trails get focus, and then a push to legalise begins. Having been involved with greenfeilds trail networks, its easier to deal with when you dont have an existing illegal network to push the adgenda. Im seeing a need for a top down approach from a national level to get into the $millions of funding focussing on WA trails. Filtering down to grass roots level.
Reading that article from 2009 it said that $50m was from the gov while $30m was co-funded.
My thoughts are to put pressure on the govt at national level.. backed up with co-funding from state level(which should include in-kind funding from all volunteer hours accumalative from all clubs).
But dont back off from the easy hanging fruit from local funding on a year in year out srtategic funding planning.
Basically it comes down to very calculated planning and having all clubs together involved and on track together. Otherwise we can all sit back and wait for it to eventually happen.. and it will.
My thoughts
Fwoark replied before I finished(didnt see his post), but I agree with fwoark, dont rely on "state" funding.
Take it on as challenge.
ok so my wage is largely by ripping/blowing the gut out of the Pilbara and other jurisdictions. but hows this. There are significant legacy issues associated with mining, despite faux pax prank April fools about precious Margs peeps not wanting to support the cars they drive and the houses they build or the shovels they use.
so when they backfill a void/hill/slope/scarp as is their want there is an obligation for massive, massive rehabilitation. So the environment is already massively altered but the end result blends back into the surrounding terrain in terms height and terrain. and we all appreciate we are not going to be able to rip the guts out of the darling scarp to satisfy our selfish need.
But there is a significant amount of terrain that is being shaped (read unbelievable amount) that is being reshaped by man in this state to its natural form in vegetation and habitat that meets the original landform and would largely be immune form consideration of primary degradation and would be seen as beneficiation to the status quo. Additional to that it would be seen as adding value to build tracks on some of this terrain and elevation up north/south that brings value and revenue to local communities and there are significant tourism opportunities out there that encompassed the existing stunning landscape and waterholes and heritage values and then significant riding opportunities.
Just saying that's all, return to as original, or return to as original and it has MTB appeal and possible revenue. What would the relative local and governing bodies think.
I love riding up north, and it has so much to offer. Keen to assist where possible. Im onto pump tracks on Mine Sites as a way of keeping crews fit but anyone with genuine interest PM me.
Trust me (many don't) ive hoiked many bikes over many very big Mesas faces and Waste dumps 100s of m high and rehabbed them all to know I really enjoyed riding up there and we have not even touched the surface.
Tie this up and tie funding for State Mtb comps from resource companies wanting land access and we will kill it.
(If you are a rampant greenie and want to PM me, don', Mining pays for the state/Fiona Stanley hospital, hele emergency services and your kids educations and the computer you are trawling on at present, as the prior forum posts indicate I am just ...what iffing.)
Rob
I agree gonzo.
Mining corporate sponsorship is something I have heard being talked about a lot, but thats all I have heard at top level. Just talk.
Perhaps another way we can look at it.. is "Royalties for regions"... in which case the trails should benifit from mining company profits.. right???
Wrong. well if you live in Perth.. its classed as urban.. and does not attract the "regional country tag".
But even then we have been knocked back with Royalties for regions funding with them pointing to the Lottieries West trails funding as the funding source suitable for building trails.
So from my personal experience its been negative.
But Ill try again.
Trail4us just a point of interest if anyone can follow up, has any group in WA apllied for funding at a national level for a multi million dollar funding grant... if not why?
I have formally applied to two organisations now to buy the state DH rights as naming investors as an employee and having no association with the club aside being a member for future land access, kudos, employer of choice and blah blah blah.
Last approach was just before a very nasty downturn but really the figures being bandies are chicken scratching to get a Naming right state competition in a growth healthy lifestyle etc etc for a State cycling event, with National and International/WC participants.
I will continue to pursue, we will get this or a event level Naming rights over the line with Resources WA.
This then takes the event winners to be advocates of the industry and possibly of WAMBA and land access and rehab areas and input to rehab and ....still thinking this is possible in medium term
Regards
Rob
Thanks for your comments trails4us (how about using your real name next time?).
I completely agree with you that NZ has done a good job promoting MTBing and the infrastructure that supports it. Of course I would like to see the same happen here.
One way I, and many others, work toward this goal is by volunteering our time to make trails, promote MTBing and raise awareness of the benefits to all of the sport.
While being vocal certainly has its place in this process, it is usually aimed at the decision makers (government, politicians, funding sources), not the already aware MTBers who know that things sure could be better if we had trails like New Zealand.
There's no way to answer your original post simply and concisely. That is precisely why things take so long - because those things are complex and difficult. If you'd like to learn the answer to your question, volunteer your time and get behind the scenes to see what work is required before the first shovel touches that pea gravel.
Martin Danger.
Is danger your middle name?
Did a Mt Buller trip earlier this year. Fair disclosure, my expectations were pretty high, but overall I was very disappointed.
Bikes: The 3rd medium I tried the rear brake lever DIDN'T go down the the bar. Not that the shop gave a shit that their top level hire DH bikes were pretty shafted.
Accommodation: So it was off season, and not too expensive, but it was shit.
Shuttles: 4 a day. I'll say that again. 4 shuttles from ONE location every day. Pretty good if you don't actually like riding.
Trails: A decent network, but poorly maintained, and AFAIK, nothing new on the horizon.
Overall: The next MTB trip WILL be to NZ or maybe even Whistler. At least the bar staff were extremely generous with the Grey Goose
On a side note, I used to work with CoP a few years ago, and it's always difficult to balance wants and needs vs resources. We had constant battles trying to figure out what the community wanted, and how to afford it.
As a mountain biker, id like 10x the trails we have now, all regularly maintained. Unfortunately, unlike NZ, holiday makers coming to Perth aren't interested in 'extreme' sports, so we don't factor into any tourism funding.
I wasn't really after any answers, I just wanted to make people aware of what is happening in NZ and asked what people think. I am well aware of what has and is happening and how it happens in WA and I have plenty of ticks on the board and my body. I still believe that to create the size of trail network that most mountain bikers would like it needs the resources of the government. Volunteers are doing an awesome job but they can only do so much.
I haven't used my real name as due to my employment it wouldn't be appropriate. I don't think my name is important but the topic is.
I think your last comment isn't quite right.
If there was Mountain bike parks(At least 150ks of trail at each) in Kalamunda, Dwellingup, Collie, Pemberton, Margaret River, Bridge Town, Manjimup, Albany and Nannup plus the Munda Biddi Trail I am sure the tourist will come.
I think the Goverment needs to be very involved as 95% of the time the trails will be on Goverment managed land. We definitely do not need the government to design the trails or even build them but they need to get cranking and make it happen by providing funding, land and support.
Wal have you thought about my earlier question? When do you think the Government will get their act together?
when ya got cash, I mean freeking ell, if ya cant see that from my kids and you to ride in 5 years time ya got to shell out rider to pay and all that with exponential growth of the sport and desire of us all to ride, its all in the tea leaves.
The govt cant organise national defences, border migration, the gst rate and the carbon price. Why are they going to sort out what you do on weekends.
If we don't sidle up to industry and work collaboratively and work on their land access agreements they spend millions on, gooood luck expecting someone appointed for 3 or 4 years to do for you.
Rob
Mate is in paper/pulp manufacture for a global. They have huge forests in Oz, NZ and otherwise. Their forests have authenticated MTB tracks on them, he visits regularly. National State and Rec parks are so prohibitive, their land that has already been granted is fluid and the work is largely done, we are part of "Rehab and remediation" with possible income for local community and its a selling point for future employees of the industry.
This is why cheap shots regarding agriculture, mining and forestry users and our interests being divergent are so off beam its not funny.
Rob
When will the govt take over the trails and get their act together.???
Its a question Ive been listening to at the state trails conferences for many years and it generally refers to all trails.. not just mtb trails.
Taking into consideration of how far we have actually got with the govt involvement into mtb trails to the quality and expectations of experienced riders.. we have not got very far at all in the last 5 years at all.
The top down down process has only just begun and its far from looking anywhere near finished within the next few years or more. A lot of local govt people still have not heard of mountain biking and how it can attract $millions through tourism(or so we tell them.. in the hope of attracting funding and support to build trails, when all we really need is just a bloody good circuit for ourselves to ride on weekends, yknow 70-100km worth)
Most of what we need we could do ourselves with relative ease, if we just got on with it.
Land access is not an issue at all, thats all too easy. All the hard work for land access is done and dusted.
Its not the actual trails we need govt help with.. its the infrastructure!
Toilets, Bitumised car parks, access/shuttle roads, chairlift, phone coverage, ambulance access, cafes/bike shops/.. at the trail head, ect ect ect.
Imagine the red tape and how long it would take to go through to get these type of facilities at Kalamunda, Pile rd or Nannup DH.?? Talking to and dealing with DEC over the years, its about the 1st question that gets bounced around, "Where do you plan to put the car park and who is going to pay for it?". "Sure you can do DH in that forest block, but who is going to pay for the maintenance of the shuttle rd?". And naturally we need a bitumised shuttle rd so the cashed up bogans(or tourist) dont get their new high powered ute dirty or scratched.
Trails4us to answer your question about when the govt may get involved so that the facilities flow freely, I would put a guess on the outside of 7 years or more.
Oh and looking at the percentage of trails on govt land with facilities, I would reduce that figure to 75% or less, Private(non govt) trail facilities will grow more than you think with govt encouraging it. I could rattle off plenty of existing and future examples... but not today.
I didn't make my point clearly before, I apologise.
The Government will take a greater role once it is convinced that taking a greater role is a good idea. Volunteers building up awareness, trails etc is one way to show the Government that taking a greater role is a good idea.
About names: The source of views is important. Example: A novice MTBer says that trails in the KC are too hard and should be made easier. You judge that statement differently if an experienced trail builder from NZ makes that same statement.
I work for the Government and have a direct conflict of interest with DSR and DEC. I have declared that conflict with my employer. I use my real name. You may have good reasons not to use your real name but you have to live with the consequences of that.
*We have a number of trails that can go into making over 100 km rides in the Perth hills. These trails do not use any of the rail trails (Heritage, Kep) or the current KC and Munda Biddi. If you include the KC trail and bits of the rail trails there is the possibility of over 300 km of continuous open trail with some single track loops and sections. All these, except for the MTB tracks, have been there for over 30 years.
**Three of my next 'long' rides will be 50km that includes Forsyth's Mill, a 65 km ride that includes Goat Farm and Forsyths Mill, the third will be (if fit enough!) include the KC, Goat Farm and Forsyths and will include little more than 5km of rail trails or Munda Biddi. Though training for the 50/50 may take up some ride time
.
**Yesterday was bored in the arvo so decided to go on a 25k ride incorporating parts of the goat farm, part of the first National round XC track (now unused), a jump park with single and double black diamond circuit and 4 Km of Heritage Trail.
**There are a number, at least six (trail heads), the above rides can start. Each has ample parking and coffee shops. One used to have a bike shop close by, but it closed down some years ago due to lack of customers.
**There are number of riders using alternate trails to the standard KC and rail trails. Unfortunately some are using closed/restricted trails.
**Does the 'sport focussed', WA MTB community even consider the Munda Biddi (or Heritage, or Kep) as part of WA's MTB trails?
**The riding/kms are there, just need consolidating (or claiming?) IMO. Rather than build new trails should we focus a little on reclaiming the ones already there, even if not ST.
**Are we too dependent on signposted trails?
*Ambulance or emergency service is available as the SES train on some of the trails. Once passed eight of their vehicles in one ride. Carrying communication gear is your responsibility. Telstra is available on just about 100% for the area, personal beacons are available.
*We don't need to start in out-of-the-way places IF we are ok with shared use existing trails. If you worried about walkers, I haven't passed one in years, even when walking on walk rails! Horses only on rail trails, motorcycles one group in five years, four wheel drivers, they stop to let me overtake them and are far better at giving way than some MTB riders. Only met them on power line tracks anyway.
*Do all the NZ South Island (SI) trails add up to slightly more than the Munda Biddi? Do we currently have more kms in WA than NZ SI? Do many of the NZ trails follow dual track and ex-rail lines (e.g. Otago Central Rail Trail).
*For eastern states riders, which would be the most attractive proposition, a New Zealand MTB trip or a WA MTB trip? Which would be the cheaper? Which would you choose if you were an eastern states rider? It is easy to say that MTB parks in WA will generate income at above cost (including ongoing maintenance costs?), and also say build it and they will come, they may, but try demonstrating it and that they will come in sufficient numbers. At present there isn't any evidence for WA to my knowledge.
*The more trails you build in WA the more maintenance you have – and currently that seems to fall on the fantastic volunteers we have. Can you estimate the cost of maintaining 150Km of trails in each of the locations mentioned in one post? Would you have to demonstrate that the cost of building and maintaining the MTB trails had a positive impact on the bottom line for councils and WA. How many riders and families would have to come into WA to make the expense acceptable?
In short we have hundreds of open km (open but not approved by the MTB powers that be – maybe that needs to be looked at?). Do we have as much or more kms of trails in WA than NZ SI? Do we have more than they will ever have? We have 'trail heads' with parking and shops, a little exploration may be in order.
The time frame talked of in some posts make me smile as I will be past the average life expectancy age by then.
FWIW avag'day
Oldernslower, the numbers scare me too, Im trying to be positive.
Trails4us, great topic to discuss, its got me thinking a little.
Im seeing the classic case of a good topic with post getting longer and longer and more in dept as we spend more time thinking about it and replying. Well Done.
The said article was about "Cycle trails" not all about mountain bike singletrack. It does say off road trails were predominately represented.. without knowing the facts.. im guessing about 70% would be "predominatley off road".
Plenty of road cycling trails around the place must be taken into account.
The figures sound great to start with, who wouldnt want $80 million for mtb trails in WA.
But The article talks from a "national view", So lets break it down. WA has 1/10th of the population hence out of $80 million.. WA would get $8 million(using percentage of population).
Using the term "predominately off road" self guessing 70%(trying to be positive), that would leave $5.6 million for "off road cycling"
Now technically the Mundabiddi is a "Off road cycle tourism" trail.. not a MTB trail..(Note the last half was built for $4Million)
Taking into account the "off road cycling sector" and MTB singletrack, I would be positive and say the mix is 30/70 in favour of single track, that would bring the remainder of the funding to aprox $4 million.
Lets now spread that figure among the trail networks, this is where Ill get bias and spread it among the country trail networks listed in the trails database on this site. 16 which doesn't include Margret River or Dunsborough or any of the North West trail networks.
That equates to about $250k per trail network. Personally I would build the facilities such as bitumised car parking, toilets, Water, signage, trail head and such.
Its not really a lot of money.
Food for thought!
My idea would be for WA to succeed from the rest of Australia and keep the royalties from the mining all to ourselves for a fairer piece of the pie. The East can look after themselves and stop sponging off the West.
As Wal mentioned some good points here.
We all know DEC is cash strapped at the moment so getting more trails through the DEC avenue would require DEC to get more funding, correct?
Political lobbying is something that really hasn't been done in WA to my knowledge. If we leave it up to the Greens pushing the cycling barrow then concessions that will be made will likely be in the form of transport cycling infrastructure (ie bike lanes in Perth).
To clarify. This isn't lobbying DEC for more trails. This is lobbying Ministers and the opposition to provide funding to enable DEC to have the funds to help us realize our vision. This happens elsewhere. I've heard it straight from the horse mouth (so to speak) that the minister allocates funds based on PERCEIVED demand. If he isn't lobbied or MTBing is never brought to his attention then his perceived demand for funds for MTBing is zero.
Think of the number of cyclist there are in WA as a percent of the population. Think of the number of Mountain Bikers. I'm not saying this should be part of any existing clubs agenda, but the question was asked and this point has been missed. If you want money go to the person who holds the purse strings!
Focused lobby groups can be very effective. Look at the USA and gun control (or lack of it). Even after the recent tragic events at Sandy Hook it seems unlikely that there will be any meaningful reforms on gun control. Why? Lobbying from the NRA. A powerful lobby group whos membership is around the 1% of the American population!
Good idea Scratchy
The Munda Biddi Trail Foundation lobbied the government.
The short version is we contacted all the shires and councils along the length of the trail, the South West Development Corporation and the Great Southern Development Corporation and got them all on board. We all signed a memorandum of understanding that we wanted the trail completed to Albany within a specific time frame. After the election 4 years ago we put it to the government for royalties for regions money and got $3 million then the government put in another $1 million via DEC.
Maybe something like that can happen.
Trouble is it costs a lot of time and effort that is hard to come by when most volunteers have full time jobs.
The link on the original post really makes me want to go to New Zealand.
Murray
From my understanding when the mundabiddi is finished and all the funding is spent, focus will start moving to smaller trail networks off the side of the mundabiddi.
Now all we need is a MTB single track Foundation!.
Wal, The other only grant we have seen as far as I know is Pemberton through the Department of Health and Aging $165,000 2009. We did apply for $ one million three years ago for Pemberton however we not successful.
Thanks Mark
Feb update of the NZ trail network we want to copy.
"The long term vision for the New Zealand Cycle Trail is of creating a nationwide cycling network that attracts more international visitors"
http://www.nzcycletrail.com/news-media/new-zeala...
We really need our own identity when it comes to trails instead of trying to cut and paste other countries success stories into our backyard.
Why goto WA to ride NZ style or even whistler style.
Barnett made some announcements regarding changes to Govt Departments today. DEC will be split into a Dept of Parks and Wildlife and retain DEC as the regulatory body
http://www.mediastatements.wa.gov.au/pages/State...
Another interesting article.
After 12 years of construction the mundabiddi is finished.
http://www.trailtalk.com.au/notes/Munda_Biddi_of...!
Looking at the bright side of things, a lot of experience has been gained for the next set of projects to flow on more quickly. Add to that State planning, regional planning local govt trail planning and sustainable framework planning, I would boast that most of the hard work for top down funding and planning is already done or on its way to being completed. From here on it will speed up the trails side of things 10 fold allowing us to get on with the fun stuff of building.
WA is catching up and overtaking other states with the advocacy side of things after years of volunteer work going on behind the scenes pushing it forward.
http://www.stuff.co.nz/southland-times/news/8588...
Good on ya Steve.
Some interesting points in the comments to the article from opening up existing walking trails for mtbers to describing them as trampers who want to go a bit further in the day.