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Support for Motorcycles
Hi Everyone,
I am the founder of Warringah Family Motorcycle Park and the voice representing many of the motorcycle clubs, businesses and individuals on the Northern Beaches and the wider area. I ride mtb's and motorcycles on the dirt and the road. Rather than give you all the information on Motorcycles i have joined the forum to educate and be educated on the problems MTB's are having with motos and vice versa.
Regards,
Andrew
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O&S, those are exactly the types of issues that need addressing. Which is what I've said? Not being opposed does not mean being supportive. For me it meams "it depends" (on getting their house in order)
What im trying to do here is focus on the problem behaviours rather than whether they are "us" or "them". Bans are one solution. Behavioral change is another possibility and if its self motivated its much easier to manage.
If they can't or won't change behaviors the land managers will exclude them and it then becomes an enforcement matter. Which way it goes is up to them.
I have my doubts they'll succeed, but they might, and they should be encouraged to at least try.
The number of people i know who ride motos. Lets say around 50. of those 50 I would say that Ive heard about 5 of them actually tell stories of riding at Red Hill in the past 12 months. I rode there once. When you consider how poor the ride quality is there for motos it becomes easy to understand how desperate these people are too ride.
Perhaps we may no succeed with encouraging all moto riders out of Red Hill with this proposal but you can bet that we will get the young ones out of there and they are the future of moto riding on the Northern Beaches. Encouraging more kids onto motorbikes? Its already out there especially after all those cheap bikes from China flooded the market. Most of the kids dont have anywhere to ride so they ride in there back yards or it becomes a motorbike holiday or a full day trek to one of the motorbike parks outside of Sydney.
The pressure for riding areas is here right now and its only increasing. This proposal and all its surrounding work takes betwen 20 - 30 hours 7 days a week. I have not even had time to add the 1000's of emails consolidated onto one list. There are 1000's of people on the Northern Beaches who are very excited about even the concept of a place to ride.
Im meeting with residents at Red Hill one at a time so I can get to understand the problems residents are facing up there. Some residents are for motos up there. Others are dead against it. Im neither for or against.
Cheers,
Andrew
Did the 1000's of people on the Northern Beaches all click "Like" on your Facebook page? Seems more like it took 6 months to get 300 Facebook likes and 600 signatures on your petitions. Making exaggerated claims about your user base won't get you very far. Personally I haven't noticed any increase in motos on the trails over the past few years. Appreciate that may not be the case for Red Hill. Sales figures from FCAI indicate 8074 off-road motorcycle sales nationally for the last quarter. I am sure that there would be a way to establish the number of motos in the Northern Beaches and thats probably the only number that counts. There are plenty of cases in NSW where areas are shared, I have seen plenty of motos at Wingello, Awaba and Orumbah however none of these share signletrack. When I have ridden singletrack in Canberra thats been heavily used by motos it was crap so I don't believe its possible to share single track, motos just do to much damage.
I am not anti motorcycle and currently own a bike. I grew up in the area, used to ride off-road motos and was a member of Manly Warringah Motorcycle Club so have some understand of where you are coming from in wanting a local place to ride. I don't think the Belrose tip site is a suitable area for motos and wouldn't support its use for that purpose. In my book an area next to schools and houses isn't the right place for motos.
There are areas available for kids like St Ives and Mt Colah that have been established for a long time and don't cause many issues with local residents and in the case of St Ives, other user groups. Why not use those places if you want your kids to ride locally? Also the HART facility at St Ives has off-road motorcycle trails. Do you know why they only allow registered bikes to attend their courses? Is it a liability issue?
My cycle club hires HART for our events? Have you considered hiring HART to test the validity of your business case for a local family friendly riding place?
There also used to be many areas to the north and northwest of Belrose where it was legal to ride and race. On recent trips out to Dargle Park its clear that its no longer used for Motos. Do you know the reasons why its no longer operational? Was it from lack of interest or did the liability issue just get to bad?
Overall I think you should persevere with the advocacy approach and expect you will eventually get somewhere, most likely to the northwest of Belrose. There is a lot to be learnt from the process the MTB advocates went through. Few of the initial proposals were successful. If you went back about 3 years the only local track was manly dam and that had as much road as single track. The usage numbers were impressive though and officials began to understand the demand. There are now a few more legal singletrack areas like Hornsby and that took many many years of dedicated effort by the local user group and a few false starts in different locations. I expect that the Hornsby track is used by more than your total potential Moto user base every weekend that its dry. The council do their own stats so its not about a few people making unsubstantiated claims, its about knowing where you fit amongst the diverse groups that are asking for scarce resources to be assigned to them. If your not top 20 in user base then you wont be able to compete for access to areas with sports or groups that are top 20. As a ratepayer and taxpayer its simply a matter of wanting local resources assigned to the larger user groups and motos are not one of them.
I expect you will continue to get a lot of pushback from people who have been working for years on getting legal access to local single track, or maintaining unofficial trails. Can you point to any studies or experience that show that having a legal moto park within 10-20 km reduces illegal trail access? Without some reputable studies and facts many of your claims appear to be BS (or incredibly optimistic).
Just my 2$ worth. btw I couldn't find a chinese manufacturer in the top 10 of ANY offroad category so doubt these bikes are currently an issue.
I like ice cream.
"Can you point to any studies or experience that show that having a legal moto park within 10-20 km reduces illegal trail access? Without some reputable studies and facts many of your claims appear to be BS (or incredibly optimistic)."
I'm sure I've heard that exact same sentence from anti mtb lobby.... Just saying is all
Difference being that we do have some supporting evidence from the International experience.
It doesn't happen magically though, it does require work.
As a former moto rider and avid 4wder I can see the need for places to go.Thats why I now ride a mtb as I have more places to ride.It may be legal to ride a moto on some fire roads[not trails]only if its named and appears on a map[topo].Every moto rider I have come across were they should not be are aggressive and all they wont to do is argue.I now just take a photo of them there bike and rego plate if fitted and ride off.
Hey everyone,
Im working hard to reply to everyones emails. quite difficult for one person to do.
PS: Just like nob mob has under 300 likes on Facebook if you have access to the data you can see who is following you. I also have over 1000 emails listed of people who have signed up, want to take part, ride etc. I think you fail to understand how many riders there are on the NB. The big problem is uniting them all under one banner. Motorbikes last much longer than push bikes too. Many people are still riding bikes as old as the early 60s at events i attend. Next to schools and houses. Closest house is over 400m away and noise tests concluded that it would not reach that far (exhausts pointed at the house taking readings at the boundaries - could not hear a thing) and schools. The schools are over 1km away and the noise in that direction was the same result.
Just a general note to all. Please stop raising the noise issue. Its been done, the report is available. It proves the site does not project sound past its boundaries and if necessary i have offered to retest and retest with other people present. It was conducted scientifically using the correct methods and the loudest possible bikes we could get.
Hiring HART cant be done. Discussed this with HART. There are people across the valley who complain once they see motorcycles (noise tests once again confirm that motorcycles at HART could not be heard but the visual site of them was enough for some residents to call police (apparently).
Lack of interest or liability - no idea but i suggest going to Pacific park and see the liability and lack of interest out there. Its packed every weekend - school holidays its like an amusement park down there. They do not actively enforce the noise restrictions there however we would. Its not that noisy down there anyway.
The council does not do any stats on motos. Does offering an area for people to ride at eliminate problem riding. Yes it does. Watch this space for research material coming your way.
Chinese bikes sold on ebay will not make any list but i can rattle of 10 people who have purchased multiples of the cheap bikes and Ive seen plenty of them around the area. They are not listed because they do not carry a VIN and are more or less considered a toy. If your a motorcycle rider you would know that new bike sales does not reflect the number of people riding (same for push bikes) - you would also know that new bike sales have also increased in the past year. Off road bikes are still the biggest sellers in the moto class).
Unclebullbar: Ice cream is great. I prefer Ice Cream and Milo.
Flynny: Im sure anti nob mob people have raised that line before. I will not raise it against you. Anyone who has half a brain can rattle of statistical information. I studied stats at uni - what a bloody waste of time. Stats will only prove that your argument is weak and needs to be backed up by figures that may not be as useful as you think they are. do your own research like we are doing. If your going to use stats make sure you research the methodology they used and the actual figures that where presented for statistical research. Dont go quoting new bike sales people, it only proves that people are purchasing bikes not using them. Why not tell me statistics like number of people attending a club meeting, what boost to the economy they offered, percentage of riders from the northern beaches who actually intend on using the site and are willing to pay considering all the free space that is already available.
Hawkeye: Refer above. Stats are useful if your argument is weak. Ive already conducted the research. Do you think I would be running a proposal with no support. We dont need international examples. we have the examples in Australia right now.
Digdig: I can understand moto riders being aggressive. They are fighting for the last bit of land they have (or think they have) to ride and all they receive is resentment especially from MTB riders because they "rip up trails" and "cause erosion". Moto riders use to have the entire Northern beaches to ride on and now its been restricted to one kiddy area (st ives) and one semi legal / illegal area (red hill). So adult riders actually have no where to ride freely on the northern beaches (when i say northern beaches i actually mean within the confines of Sydney). You can ride your push bike anywhere anytime. Road, bush, custom built trails are everywhere for you guys. It takes two people to argue digdig. Former moto rider. There seems to be a few former moto riders on this site who have converted to push bikes.
Ill be of nob mob by the end of next week. If you want to raise any further questions / make a point after then there is a facebook site and a website starting up soon with a forum on it.
Cheers,
Andrew
Anyway, Simon is your point man and area expert on Red Hill. Hope you have some success in reining in what's going on with the motos up there. Will be watching with interest.
Will the land owner/manager require motorbikes to be registered if they are going to use the venue? What happens if a rider on an unregistered and poorly maintained bike has an accident caused by the condition of their vehicle and tries to sue the land owner/manager because they did not require some sort of standardised safety inspection before riding at the venue? I realise this is difficult for dirt bikes, but areas like state forests require motorbikes to be registered if they are legally riding in there? If this happens here, how detrimental is that to your plans for the area?
I hope that makes sense.
@hawkeye
You do the MTB community no favours by being patronizing in your responses to this topic.
@simon, not once on trailcare or on Nobmob have I ever seen you properly address moto's at red hill yet you main agenda has always seemed to be nothing more than a small pocket of red hill and O.F.
That is the problem. Everyone seems to have their own small agenda without ever considering a wider amount do user groups or knowledge of the general local area.
Eg. What if I suggestested a permanent cyclocross course as part of the facilities at bare creek? Would ya shoot me down?
Yes Andrew it take 2 to argue and its like a dog to a bone for me when a moto is in a national park riding single track that was built for the mtb community.The reason we have access is we have worked hard to separate ourselves from the moto community.
We are modelling our insurance etc of existing policies which basically means you are responsible no matter what. If you dont like the conditions then dont ride, if your motorcycle is not suitable to ride then dont ride. Its a similiar agreement to when i race. Ride to the conditions. Although there is a level of scrutineering provided at a race meet. The majority of people who ride generally have well maintained bikes. All up if the brakes work and the rider has a helmet and back protection there is no reason to refuse them entry. We will have a mandatory level of safety requirement and an education campaign which will focus on rider safety. If someone shows up in thongs, shorts and a busted helmet they will be refused entry or be able to hire one.
I agree with you. If you work on an area that is designated for MTB riders then i agree with you. Motos should not be in there. But the reason you have access is not through the separation of our groups. Motos have been systematically eliminated from every area on the northern beaches through development of the areas we use to ride. It also doesnt help that the shit heads on motos seem to be the face of an otherwise responsible group of riders. MTB are also well established in the political arena while motos are basically scratching at the door.
The difference between our groups is mtb are simply more organised. We have not actively attempted to develop areas just for ourselves and exclude other user groups. We dont have a me me me mentality. On the other side of the argument I can see that we have not helped maintain the areas that we ride either and I can see that to some extent we have contributed to tracks being degraded over time. Motos and mtb have different view points on this which is where a level of education can come in handy for both groups.
There's this woman in Forestville. Wants to keep everyone out of the bush at Bantry Bay.. In some cases it seems even the walkers. She's dedicated... Has walked and door knocked the entire suburb pver the last 2 years, is at the local shops every weekend, placing signs at every enterance to the bushland. She's got some valid points (that will be mitigated) and has a number of supporters.
What's the point? She doesn't have momentum. She's fighting a losing battle as the Government have decided to open up parks to other user groups; in particular mountain bikes. MTB is seen as low impact but still catering to a large user base.
Moto's? In NSW Barry already has shooters to deal with... and they've only got a look in because they're needed for votes. Warringah Council is also on the MTB bandwagon; seen their latest campaign. MTB has momentum, both growth in use (including cheap Chinese bikes) as well continued growth of political support. The sites MTB are pitching for will become MTB sites because that's what our Government and Council now want.
Andrew I admire your persistence and dedication to your cause. But you are a user group who will have significant resistance from the general community and you don't have politics on your side. I think it's time you put your efforts to finding a home for Moto outside the Sydney Basin. Otherwise you will be like the sad old woman at Forestille; bitter from all those years fighting a lost cause.
way to live life! So, because it looks like a long hard road for the Motos...just give up? Imagine if everyone thought like that, we'd be living in apathy.
That strange lady is a one man band - why do you think Andrew is also?
At the risk of being 'emotive' (after all I am female). I am sure that when some 'out there shooter' concocted the fantastic idea of letting hunters loose in National Parks the people around them told them they were fighting a lost cause as well...and look at that now.
Yesterday I was trying to think of another sport who have no facilities at all on the Northern Beaches..either I wasn't very imaginative (possible) or there weren't any!
Cheers
Christine, street luge! Lots of hills but they've got nowhere they are allowed to play.
On a serious note, Andrew I commend you for your initiative and genuinely hope that you manage to secure not only the funding but also an appropriate location to establish your park.
That said, you will not be getting my support for a shared use facility at Bare Creek. I think Simon has made it clear that he believes the area is too small for it to be a suitable site.
I also have an issue with the noise. I know you don't want people to bring it up but you are only looking at it from a point of view of neighbouring residences / businesses. I am talking about it from a fellow park users point of view. I enjoy riding my bike in the bush partly because of the isolation and the sound that nature brings with that. Hell, there are times my hope hubs are too noisy and need to be silenced.
I also think it would be inappropriate for the wider MTB community to be seen supporting your cause at Bare Creek at the 11th hour. One of the issues that I believe opponents of MTB use in general is that local residences confuse us with the noise of motor bikes. It has taken a lot of effort to differentiate between the two. Any action by the MTB community at such a late stage would, I fear, be thrown back at us the next time we try to secure an area for use. I can hear it now, "If you let them in it will only be a matter of time before they support motorbikes, just look what happened at Bare Creek"
I'm sorry that I am not able to suggest an appropriate location but do hope that you find one. Educating the next generation is the best way to eventually stop the selfish actions of the minority that do give your sport a bad rep. The actions of a selfish mountain biker might spoil the afternoon of the other users he comes across, the actions of a selfish moto rider either require much hard work to undo or remain for all trail users to see for a long time to come.
Bully, I prefer popcorn and was going to get some to enjoy while I watch this thread develop.
We hardly exclude other groups we work closely with walking and horse riding groups in many places.
At the moment I don't know of any land manager other than Ku ring gai Council at St Ives Showground or HART that wants Motos on their land.
Unless they can get a land manager on board the discussion here has nowhere to go. Oxy and Red Hill have been policed before and could be again if the land managers wanted. With proper maintenance and keeping Motos off Mtb single track I'm open to sharing in the right location.
It's not our decision or the mountain bike communities. We are not a council, State Government or significant land owner.
Not sure what you mean by a small pocket of Oxy and RH? Our proposal is goes south from Mona Vale, includes Bare Creek all the way to XC loops at RH and includes all of Sport and Rec, rim ride old DH tracks off Mr Motocross. Have avoided what is most likely to become houses.
I'm not convinced about a very small area being half of Bare Creek becoming the only location for a user group the same size as ours. However, not our decision.
We rejected Bare Creek ourselves as unviable when for a while councils and State were suggesting it became the only location for all mountain biking in the northern beaches other than Manly Dam. It would have been completely unworkable and not addressed any of the riding on unofficial tracks elsewhere.
Andrew has proactively come on here to get feedback on the issues. This he has done which can only help to strengthen their proposal. He has also challenged some statistics which has been interesting.
... it's hard to see motos getting any serious amounts of dedicated land in the Sydney basin or surrounding ranges unless it's on a big bit of private property. I've pretty much got to go up to Clarence (west) or the Watagans / Yengo NP (north) or don't really know where (south) to get my Prado off-road and it's always going to be pretty much the same for motos. Too much trail damage, too much noise, too little concern for other users. I know Andrew is trying to address a couple of these issues, but his chances are slim to SFA and for mine I don't think there is any mileage for the mtb lobby to team up in seeking shared facilities in the Sydney 'burbs.
"Unless they can get a land manager on board the discussion here has nowhere to go. Oxy and Red Hill have been policed before and could be again if the land managers wanted. With proper maintenance and keeping Motos off Mtb single track I'm open to sharing in the right location."
Simon, I just don't believe they can ever be trusted to do the right thing.
On Saturday there were 6 motorbikes, all coming in illegally past the Crown Land signs from Lady Penryhn. I was nearly hit by one.
Sunday morning saw 3 on the newly repaired fire road off the top of Cromer Rd.
These guys all know they are there illegally but just don't give a.....
And they're not all kids on Chinese crappers either. The ones on Sunday were on big expensive bikes.
Also have you noticed how they all either turn their number plates over or fold them around their rear mudguard so as you can't see the rego.
They wouldn't be doing that if they really believed they were allowed to be there.
Just a note to everyone to thank them for their time. This is my final post. Im looking forward to meeting up with you Simon to take a walk around red hill.
Old and Slow. These people are riding up there as it is the last place people can ride on the northern beaches. legal or illegally you wont curtail riding up there until another place is offered. This applies to all your precious maintained tracks on the northern beaches. I dont support illegal riding but suggesting motorcycle riders cant be trusted is a very broad statement considering I ride with many of the Australian Federal Police, Local Police, Business owners, Directors of Multi National companies. I suggest you be more considerate with your wording. Your comments only further the whinging me me me stereotype of mtb riders.
Also folding the rego around the mud guard is common practice by many moto riders. It stops branches ripping the plate of the bike. Some motos also ride with plates strapped to back packs to ensure they dont come off, I have siliconed and wrapped my plate around the rear fender but it still comes up off after about 10 rides, its a very physical sport. Riding without registration is illegal. No doubt about it.
My last words from what I have learnt and hope you all have to.
The problem of motos is not going to go away. I suggest you all come on board and try to work out a solution or give support to our proposal (perhaps not the belrose proposal but any future proposal that is not in direct competition with mtb riders). Perhaps we may not secure a riding area at Belrose but rather than shitting all over the only proposal trying to improve your area while simultaneously giving moto riders (who cant ride anywhere) a place to ride is not going to help.
If anyone would like to suggest an area which they would support I will start working on it.
Thanks for your time and I appreciate all the negative and positive comments from everyone.
Safe riding.