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Support for Motorcycles
Hi Everyone,
I am the founder of Warringah Family Motorcycle Park and the voice representing many of the motorcycle clubs, businesses and individuals on the Northern Beaches and the wider area. I ride mtb's and motorcycles on the dirt and the road. Rather than give you all the information on Motorcycles i have joined the forum to educate and be educated on the problems MTB's are having with motos and vice versa.
Regards,
Andrew
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Sounds like a great idea. It's always good to hear all sides of the story, working together should speed up getting new trails approved for all users of the parks and I'm sure all the trail advocates on here would welcome the input.
I look forward to hearing your views and concerns.
Good to see proactive participation from the MX community.
This group appears to have been formed to lobby for official moto access to the (eventual) redevelopment of the Belrose Tip site. Which begs the question of whether we are competing for the same space, or whether a multi-user facility likely to embrace mtb and moto use??
My guess would be that mtb access to the site would be less likely if it was allied to moto use, but happy to be corrected by any of the active lobbyists who may be in a better position to know.
We need to advocate access to our bushland for all users. As a combined voice we may get a word in with equal or greater weight than the greens or bushcare groups. As active users we can maintain our trails as well reducing the burden on councils ect
Ok so I get that this can sound hypocritical but I'm not keen on sharing trails with moto's. Walkers, horses, mtb are all people (animal) powered. Moto's being petrol powered make noise and push out exhaust. The few times I've been unfortunate enough to come across moto's at Cascades have ruined a ride through the natural environment; loud exhaust as the guys pulled the throttle up the hills and exhaust fumes in my face for the next couple of minutes.
Also living close to the bush I can attest to the sound of Motos carrying into adjacent residential areas.... Ok there are lawn mowers etc but if an area becomes Moto friendly there will be an over representation at that location. I fully support MTB behind my house, including night riding, as there will be no impact. But I'd kick up a stink if moto's were given access.
Sorry moto riders but you won't get any support from me for access to the areas MTB currently has access to.
With our walking and horse riding friends already against MTB out of confusion with Moto's I also question any benefit that you would bring to the MTB cause.
you might want to have a read over here http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?2...
Locally in Sydney Northern Beaches we have had the following issues in the last 6 months.
Land managers and green groups have continually lobbied against mountain bike riders pointing to pictures of the damage we do. Most of the time it's moto tyre tracks cutting through the surface of tracks, cutting new lines to avoid obstacles and running straight across aboriginal land carvings.
On tracks that are maintained by bike riders is the ripping up of the surface and ruts that are dug from a 20-40kW bike which stuffs the drainage design and wash everything away. We can't do this sort of damage with 0.7kW of power and tyres with much less tread.
This is combined with track widening, tree removal and also shifting of rocks into our landers so that Motos can ride up our descending tracks.
Ripping up of corners from using the throttle in a corner.
Preference of local Motos for riding in the wet.
General destruction of bike tracks and depressing the builders/maintainers to the point of abandoning tracks which then erode to pieces which we get blamed for.
Cutting beginner lines in bike tracks which channel water and wash out the rest of the track.
Working with crown lands recently Motos sitting on a firetrail spinning the back wheel to deliberately cut through and destroy water bars and controls. Cutting of sediment traps releasing water.
Throwing dog shit all over Crown Lands vehicles while we were meeting with Crown Lands recently.
Riding unregistered bikes so they can't get reported and traced.
Not saying all mountain bike riders are perfect either, it's just far easier for Motos to do damage. As with any user group we also have some red neck mongrels.
I also don't know what the solution is for Motos in this part of Sydney. Mountain bike trails are hard enough to get approvals for, we also don't make noise and are far les likely to rip up a track surface and need less track footprint, less space and go at slower speeds.
Damage is partly subjective. Some walkers see damage as something that doesn't look as pretty, scratches on rocks through to erosion. For us it's also partly asthetic but also about ripped up loose surface and ruts that stuff water control and trail widening.
Full Disclosure: I grew up on dirt bikes and still love road bikes, yep I'm a petrol-head.
If you look at all the commentary and just common sense it's obvious that MTB and Moto are not compatible in many trail areas. They do damage the tracks, particularly single-track and that will continue whilst they're using the areas. You're also not going to get Moto riders not to chew up the surface when they're riding, it's pretty intrinsic in riding if you're going fast with a motor (and let's face it we all like to go fast)
If that's the case, and the argument is put forward that Motos are using specialist MTB tracks because they have nowhere else to ride, isn't the strategy of giving them somewhere of their own to ride valid? Think of the analogies of skate parks or legitimate grafitti walls that have become common over the last 15 years, isn't this just the same thing? It's not going to keep everyone off the MTB trails as a family friendly park won't meet all riders needs (just the same as the Grove jump track was a bit too dumbed down for the experts) but it's sure got to help.
MTB, through a lot of hard work, has some great opportunities to responsibly and legally access new areas and trails whereas Moto is being driven the other way. Let's focus on those opportunities rather than worrying over who get access for a few acres of reclaimed tip. Someone asked are we in competition for the same space, personally I don't think there's much competition as we have such great possibilities compared to Moto riders.
My only concern with part of the Belrose tip being turned into a moto park would be how to ensure access to the adjoining Garrigal NP was restricted. You could easily see it becoming a nice extension/detour for the moto's when they get bored of the designated area. Good fencing and enforcement would be a must
my 5c
Youve been given plenty of free information, Andrew.
I think its now appropriate to request that you chip in and contribute to the discussion before we help you any further.
What do we gain by supporting you? We'd like to help but right now, i see little reason to assist and every reason to seek your further banishment, given the track record (pun intended) we have observed from motos to date. The condition of the mini wheeks club traxk at St Ives is as good a reason as i can think of for trying to get you formally excluded. That kind of outcome at the tip site would be a disaster.
What are you proposing to address these issues? Where can we see these proposals actually working in practice?
We'll consider it if the evidence supports it, but to be frank our experience of you is poor and youve got a huge amount of work to do to be convincing.
Ball's in your court.
I agree with you entirely about how motorcycles are damaging areas and the continual use without repairs made to the area from the motorcycle groups is not acceptable. I understand MTB riders take great care of the area, appreciate the natural terrain and serenity of riding. I am a MTB rider and have been for years and continue to do so.
For this reason we would assume that MTB would support Motos having an area to ride.
We have proven through noise testing that Belrose is the perfect area for motos. Im happy to give you the results of the noise testing conducted by four members of the committee and a member of WAMC.
I can not say i speak for all moto riders and while im not responsible for the people who do damage to the trails you ride and the altercations you have I can say that I am doing as much as humanly possible to co educate both MTB and Motos. I have offered my time to support your cause and will do so if given any opportunity.
While im aware that Trail Care and MTB riders have openly refused to share Belrose tip with us we are still working towards a co operative area shared by us both and maintained by both. We are educating our riders about why MTB may be annoyed with us and many understand this completely once its explained.
If there is anything else I can do to help you all I will gladly offer my support.
Yes I read that thread as an ex member of NOB MOB pointed it out to me.
These are the issues we are trying to address by offering moto riders a reasonable place to ride at Belrose Tip. Support for the proposal will see a drastic decrease in these kinds of issues. We are not going to stop with Belrose. We will be working towards generating areas for both groups that can be shared.
Back in the Day groups of horse riders and moto riders would meet and discuss where they would ride thus avoiding each other all day.
Regards,
Andrew
Banishing motos is a very unlikely outcome. Motorbike sales have increased in the past years and with the increasing number of pit bikes and the cheap Chinese motorcycles flooding in from overseas riding a motorbike has become a more accessible sport in my opinion for young kids with an interest in the sport. I occasionally visit BBF and im amazed at the costs of push bikes these days. Its easy to understand why a young child may choose to ride a $480 125cc motorbike over $2000 push bike.
I do not speak for the mini wheels club and im unaware of how they operate. We are not comparable in anyway to them. As far as I know they are a club run by parents for Children to compete. Warringah Family Motorcycle Park is proposed as a professionally run not for profit organisation, there will be no competition at all. It will be a family friendly area for both parent and child to ride.
Im unsure of what kind of outcome your implying for the Belrose site. Surely if you read our proposal you would find that it would be very suitable to the site. Also the noise testing that was done for the site showed it was a perfect site for noise suppression as the natural lay of the land suppressed noise very well. In 4 of the 5 test sites we could not even hear the bikes at full revs.
Im happy to give you a copy and discuss this further in person if your interested.
Regards,
Andrew
If your interested in a copy of the proposal please let me know.
The bike park proposal has no access to any of the surrounding area. Fencing already exists.
Thanks for your comments and support.
If you are interested im happy to arrange a meeting where I can provide you all with as much information about Warringah Family Motorcycle Park.
Or if you are from a club and have regular meetings im more than happy to talk at a meeting if invited.
Regards,
Andrew
I'm interested to read a copy of the submission. I'll PM you my email address.
Unfortunately I'm coming into my busiest time of year, but will give you what time I can.
I think Jet Skis are cool. But in the city, in the harbour, at heavily populated beaches, they were seen as inappropriate. So Jet Skis were banned from the Harbour and from Sydney Beaches. There's still plenty of waterways for Jet Skiers to use outside of the Sydney Basin. There's also still plenty of appropriate water sports that people can undertake.
I think motor bikes are cool. But in the city, in our parks, on populated walking and riding trails they are seen as inappropriate. So motor bikes should be banned from Sydney parks, and populated walking tracks. There's still plenty of parks, trails and private farms to use outside of Sydney. There's also plenty of appropriate sports that people can undertake.
Sorry guys. I understand what you are trying to achieve. I hate being banned from areas that I like to ride. But I ride a 15kg mountain bike that is powered by me and makes virtually no noise and has no impact on other trail users. Sure there opportunities for dick heads to blast by walkers but that can happen on a city street in Sydney. When you ride trails the entire valley knows about it. Maybe the residents close to Belorse tip will be immune (what are there, 3 or 4) but your noise will carry into the Belrose Valley. And your members staying within the Belrose tip site.... That's a great story.
There is nothing that your group offers to MTB and any alignament with you erodes the position of MTB.
The question stands. What do you have to offer MTB!
I think we are drifting of the wrong page here. What does WFMP of MTB riders?
1) we are attempting reduce rogue riders in your area
2) reduce erosion from the the same riders
3) provide moto riders the option of being able to ride at a legal, designated and managed area
4) give children the same opportunity as adults to ride.
5) educate both about how to interact and respect each other
I thought the main problem here is that motos are ripping up your tracks that you built and manage. Well heres a legitimate option to get rid of those riders.
What has the MTB community offered WFMP:
????
(if you want to add something to that list please let me know - this is what im on this forum for)
We have MTB riders in our group who support us and support the reasons based on MTB rider values.
Jet Skis are not banned across the Sydney Basin. There are a number of places you can use them. We are not comparable in this instance as there is so much unprotected, unrestricted coastline on the east coast. I can take a jet ski to a number of areas on the NB. I cant take my bike anywhere within a 2 hour radius and if i want to take someone under 16 with me i have to take them to pacific park to ride with them or to the mini wheels club where i must help run the day. Pay for race lice $60, entry fees $60 and then they will need to sit around for hours waiting for there events.
WFMP is not a group of activists trying to get motorbikes into state forests. We are the opposite. We are trying to get riders out of the sensitive bush land areas and away from horse riders, walkers, MTB etc and give them a suitable place that can be managed appropriately.
Noise tests concluded that the level of noise did not carry across the valley. Using a DB meter we recored no increase in noise over the ambient noise. This means that even with the best equipment we had available to detect noise. Motorbikes at full revs could not be heard at distances between 200m to over 1km away. If your interested in the results from the noise test im happy to make them available to you. A side note: I had to call in a mate of mine who is a pro motocross racer to bring his 450cc Suzuki RMZ with an after market racing exhaust to get something on our noise test. The results still proved at all sites that the noise did not increase above ambient. To be honest when it comes to Noise made by motorcycle on Belrose tip we have put this issue to bed.
As MTB do have a poor perception of moto riders i believe you also have a poor perception of what WFMP is about and why we are doing it. WFMP is for families. Its not for the professional rider (which there are almost none at Red Hill). Its so that Children (who are required to ride at motorcycle parks - Pacific park over 4 hours return) can ride with there parents, It gives everyone an equal opportunity. WFMP will share the space with the bare creek bike park proposal and work in conjunction with them. Obviously if they want to run an epic ride day we will gladly offer them so of our track (if we succeed).
Please remember guys that 90% of moto riders are not shit heads. Myself im an electrician who was saddened to see how little my nephews where by the fact they could not ride a nearly silent bike anywhere on the NB hence why i started WFMP. Other people i ride with are gov employees, police officers, CEO's, managing directors, family members and we are all respectable riders, we travel hours to ride in the bush to avoid people. We slow down and ride as silently as possible when we are near houses, animals or other users of the area. I find it very difficult to accept that we are all put in with the one basket of riders. I too have had altercations with bike riders while walking but I have never put you all in the same basket.
Anyway it seems ive put my 5c in. As ive said to everyone Im happy to offer the proposal and noise testing for your consideration.
Cheers,
Andrew
It is a sad fact that each interest group tends to have their response to other groups' attempts at progress tainted by the "what's in it for me" factor.
I for one would be happy to see WFMP earn a safe and appropriate place to ride. Especially if that reduces the impact on other interest groups.
Thanks for returning to help us understand your motivation.
Thanks for your kind words. The more i work on this proposal the more i find i need support from the push bike community. As hard as it is im still working towards it and hope to get you all on the WFMP side.
Hi All,
I thought i would quickly run over a few things I thought should raised after a long walk with my dog at Red Hill.
Firstly I have noticed that Motorcycles are not allowed on crown lands (this is a given) and I can see there are motorcycle tyre marks on the trails there.
So i thought i might make a few points which may spark up some conversation.
1) Registered motorcycles are permitted on roads / fire trails etc. If you see motorcyclists on the main drag up at Red Hill you may find that they are not breaking the law at all. Would anyone out there like to contest this? I will be consulting the local cop shop about this in detail. I have been read rules that permit motorcycles in areas such as these. I will do my best to find it.
2) I did see damage done to the BMX section of the track and I can see a lot of hard work has gone into this area. However you have created the perfect motorcycle area in that section. I also could not imagine the bikes would fair to well in the soft sand in that area. There has also been no attempt to keep motorcycles out of that area or provide notice of any form. If you want to keep motorcycles out of that area put up some decent signs and I will also offer a few of the WFMP signs to advise riders.
I also noticed a lot of rubbish up there in terms of a busted shade tent, thrown away cans and bottles, plastic and cloth. When you next do your works up there perhaps it might be a good idea to keep the area clean as well as maintaining it.
- Give me a time and date and I will come up and help any group up there who wants to fix up the area. Please note that I already volunteer my time to WFMP, Nepean Speedway and Pink Hope so my time is very limited.
3) I did find that some IDIOT moto rider has been doing burn outs up there. On concrete, on the walkway bridge timbers. I can assure you this person is a moron and most likely a younger rider. This is the kind of rider that 99% riders do not want to be associated with and would not and should not be tolerated.
4) I will place a few posters up there once they are finished printing to advise riders of WFMP. Hopefully they wont be ripped down by MTBs or locals. I will also be doing a hand out for locals up there. Im sure they will support WFMP.
Cheers,
Andrew
I have concerns about your proposal.
You'll be taking approximately half the site.
That effectively means the loss of the entire cross-country component and beginners area.
The section that's left is limited by the terrain to suiting advanced riders only. Beginner mountain bike riders don't suddenly jump on a downhill bike and start doing jumps, drops and steep descents.
Not being able to cater to riders of all skill levels escalates Council's exposure to liability.
The map does need some explaining but we have built our track design to include what we saw as part of the cross country trail. The government has not given us $$$ to fund our proposal and develop it so are maps are in not as greater detail.
The other component of the bare creek bike park is that Warringah Council will not support a single use facility. They will only support a multi use facility. This being said the motorcycle proposal has more than made way for bikes to take the majority of the site and they would still be able to operate 90% of their original proposed track designs. Please remember the proposed ares that we are after I dont think push bikes 1) would want as they are almost perfectly flat or very steep and rocky 2) we have absorbed the amenities into our area to ensure the bikes have the majority of the area 3) The proposal is an ever changing design and can be modified as needed. 3) some of the down hill trails proposed by the bare creek proposal (from memory) where a combination of steep descent for advanced and modified beginner trails. It seemed very well thought out. I myself would only be considered a beginner in the sport but I would definitely take my bike to bare creek to use all the tracks.
Im curious as to whether Bare Creek will be charging admission to the site? Our proposal is a user pay philosophy which gives us the ability to remove liability to council. Also noting that council will not be liable for the site as its not the property of Warringah Council. Its owned by state and thus its the states liability. Warringah Council will not accept liability of the site ever.
As a user pay system we can manage and maintain the area much better than a free ride area. There are also ongoing costs associated with the site of $150,000.00 approx per year which we are willing to contribute to on a m2 basis. I dont think Bare Creek will raise $150,000 pa to pay its own way through the costs of operating on the site which gives them a limited operating period of what ever is left in the bank from the 3.5 Million funding to develop the site. Once again i dont have all the facts and figures but if someone would like to correct me please feel welcome to.
Regards,
Andrew
Disagree with most of your rebuttal, except the statement about Council's support for a multi-use facility only.
Now I do acknowledge you have a legitimate need, even though your numbers are much smaller than the mountain bike community. I understand there have been offers to assist with the location of alternate sites in the St Ives area, which I took to perhaps mean the St Ives showground locale, although I don't have much idea on how realistic or suitable they are at this point in time.
We had enough trouble convincing the parties that our proposal would meet site protection and EPA requirements. Even if there were no other options available, both WSN and Council are more likely to do nothing than accept the risks that come with allowing motorbikes on that site.
You need to remember that doing nothing (except for engaging a contractor to turn up occasionally to slash the weeds) is a viable option for all the parties, especially when you consider all the things that can go wrong from a site cap breach or damage to the equipment. Utilising the site is a nice-to-have. Environmental protection is non-negotiable. And the decision-makers are very risk averse.
Personally, I think you're trying to get water to flow uphill getting the support of other user groups to the required level, and I really think your energies would be better spent trying to investigate and pursue those alternative sites.
But it's your time and energy to do with as you wish.
Ive offered you as much fact as possible. Anything im unsure about I have let you know. Whats there to disagree with?
Firstly we where looking at another site however the minute it was raised the same bike group who are after Belrose started their work on the site we where after. I mentally and physically dont have the time or energy to manage multiple proposals for motorcycle areas.
I dont believe we are a smaller community than the push bike community. I attended one event last weekend which pulled in 173 riders in one day at one track and that was just a club day. You just dont see how many motorcycles are actually around until you partake in the event or go where motos are forced to go due to exclusion from the area.
We have met with council multiple times and they approve of WFMP proposal but they can not approve either WFMP or bare creek simply because of its location. Requirements can be met for any site if the right conditions are applied to the area.
WAMC have told us (all people involved with the Belrose site) that there is an ongoing site maintenance cost of 150K. This is not a WFMP figure it a WAMC figure.
I agree with you about water up hill. Its a long and hard battle but the site is perfect for motorcycles.
I appreciate you sending me the proposal. As I said, I'm happy to evaluate things like this on the facts.
I was hoping your document would provide some indication that sharing the site was perhaps realistic, workable, and maybe even to our advantage.
Unfortunately, it failed do that.
What's there to disagree with? Much.
It's not that we have openly refused to share Belrose with you based on a dislike of your user group.
It's that the site only just fits in a viable mountain bike park with shared use for walkers as it is. We have been working towards this outcome at this site attending meetings for 5 years.
Cutting it in half means threatens its viability. We lose all the XC and beginner areas. This is where our school groups and young families will be going and prevents us achieving what you yourselves are try to do. The gradients where the gravity area is are already too steep for gravity which is why the proposed tracks traverse.
Like I said earlier, I do not know what a viable solution is for Moto's in this part of Sydney other than expanding on the existing areas for moto's around St Ives.
Among other things the noise issue is also a major concern for residents and also other users of the park.
I have more than 10 years experience in Sustainability and also Noise consulting. I currently write noise policy for the State Government.
I also don't agree that moto and mountain bikers are a similar size user group. Based on the sales figures in your proposal mountain bikes out sell moto's by 20:1.
Also note the registered trail bikes can only be used on official fire trails where the land managers support it. Mountain bike riders can't even ride some fire trails. Note many sections of firetrail at Red Hill do not officially exist and the major land managers don't support Motos at Red Hill. I can't think of a circuit that is possible at Red Hill on a moto. Some managers have contacted the police whom will enforce this when called. Cameras have also been put in.
I understand your efforts over the 5 years and believe me that if there was another suitable site we would be jumping on it. Is trail care still investigating the greenwoods site / St ives sites? We are still working to get MTBs to support an area for motos that will help get motos out of areas like red hill. Is there an area trail care / mtbs would support for motos?
Sharing the site is something that can be discussed.
Noise concerns have been dealt with and the test results proved conclusively that noise would not be a problem on this site. We are happy to conduct as many test as necessary with as many people present as needed with as many bikes as needed. Im fairly experienced with the moto noise testing procedures and what needs to be done to curtail noise issues.
Motos and MTB riders. Yes the purchase of push bikes is much higher than motos. However council clean up you also see one or two bikes per street. There are an equal number of active recreational riders. 170 riders turned up to one event the other day - just a minor club day. When was the last time you had 170 riders to a club level event? (an open event you can get many MANY more and thats just one type of riding dont forget we have as many if not more styles of riding as push bikes. Trials, MotoX, Speedway, Enduro, Super cross, Supermoto, Free Style, road racing - the list goes on) There are over 30,000 members of the Motorcycling council of NSW.
I personally dont support motos at red hill but a registered trail bike will be very difficult to stop up there at the moment. Once again ill be meeting with the local cop shop so we can nut this issue out, would you like to join me? The difference between not supporting motos and it being illegal are two different issues. Im sure in time it will become illegal in time given the plans that are underway for the areas.
Regards,
Andrew
I'm struggling to see what there is to be gained from engaging with you when you clearly aren't engaged with the real world. The sales numbers don't lie.
You're tilting at windmills.
Good luck with that
I'm not familiar with Greenwoods or St Ives? Perhaps know them by different names.
As I said before I'm not sure where a good site for Motos would be. Most sites with space are also adjacent to affluent areas that won't support it or next to National Parks which is again an issue. I haven't put time into looking as it has not been a priority. I spend about 7 hours a week in my own time coordinating projects for mountain biking as it is.
There is a difference between understanding noise test procedures for emission from motos and meeting other criteria including legislation. Eg ADR compliant vehicles doesn't mean you can build a road anywhere.
TrailCare is not a club and is not involved with racing. Personally I have never raced and have no interest. From what I hear in parts of Sydney that have clubs with tracks we are generally limited to 250 riders. Small club events from what I am told have similar numbers per event. Bigger events have to be held outside of Parks land.
Disagree with user numbers. Doesn't tie in with experience on tracks, car parks, trail counts, tyre tracks etc. Motos are just more concentrated to a limited number of places. Feel for you guys here, you are in a worse situation than us.
Red Hill in some respects makes more sense as long as single track doesn't get ripped to pieces or the firetrail. It is mostly away from houses and has longer trail potential than could be built at Bare Creek. It can also be accessed away from houses.
Can meet up with the cops if you want but TrailCare is not at this stage interested in forcing the hand at Red Hill as you guys will have no where to go. It's really up to the land owners.
I'm more interested in fixing up basic drainage on fire trails to get the place to dry out better which reduces issues for all and then enforcing protection of single track.
Sales figures and reality.
My nephews has had a new bike every year for the last 5 years. Sales figures are meaningless. The figures you need to look at are participation numbers.
If you want to look at numbers that support your cause without looking at all the figures then you clearly are not facing reality.
Cheers
Do you have permission to use heavy machinery at Red Hill to improve the drainage up there or is it all by hand? What does it involve? May be a good option if your free to take a walk up there so I can see first hand what issues are up at Red Hill. I have already organised to meet other people at Red Hill (residents, and mtb riders).
I will let you know when the meeting with LAC is organised.
Thanks for the consideration. Motos are in a bad way at the moment (especially with a few bad eggs giving us a bad name). Like i have said in the past. If motos secure an area it will always be available to as many sporting groups that we can offer it too. (I know the St Ives mini wheels club lends their track to a mtb group during the week).
While walking at Red Hill the other day I came across the BMX track (seems there is two up there. I came across the first one which has been let go and then the one that is well maintained). Its very impressive and easy to see how much work has gone into it. I would like to see that area protected as well. As for the single at Red Hill. I cant imagine any moto who would want to ride it. Its relatively very basic and poor quality riding for motos.
I know ive raised this before but if you want to keep moto riders out of BMX area put up some signs. I have some education posters that will be ready soon.
As for noise testing etc. Ill take your word on it as 10 years will teach you things that I will not know. However all modern dirt bikes are ADR compliant from the factory. Any aftermarket exhaust must also be ADR compliant (MNSW also has requirements for noise testing and limits). The noise testing at Belrose (as you have heard me say before) proven the site is perfect for motorcycles (based on current noise testing results).
Cheers
Not sure what else you are hoping to achieve on this thread.
Happy to meet up with you.
We have been looking at participation rates from ABS and other sources for Australia, NSW and other countries. Based on more detailed breakdowns the proportion of mountain bikers within the category cycling in NSW would still be in the top seven recreation activities.
Offload motorbike disciplines don't feature in the top 20 and would be lower than Aussie Rules in 20th place at 0.3%. Lawn bowls and Cricket at 1.2%, Fishing and Dancing/Ballet at 1.4%.
But arguing numbers doesn't really help. There is a need for a place for Motos.
At this stage heavy machinery would probably be no more than a bobcat unless we can get funding, hand tools are likely. Still working through details for environmental and also have a chartered civil engineer looking to donate time to look at water run off and erosion.
Yeah I believe I have received everything I will ever get from this thread. Obviously you are fair minded on the subject. Thanks to everyone for your responses.
Lets keep talking about Red Hill. The more time i spend up there the more chance i have of fixing the issues with motos up there.
Cheers
It appears to me Andrew has come into the 'enemy camp' waving a white flag saying he wants to work with the MTB riders and improve relations ….you have greeted him with a brick wall.
It's no secret that I want the motos off of Red Hill. The trails simply don't have the visibility for any safety and the geology is too fragile to sustain constant use by the motos, especially when combined with water run off - as is seen by the way in from Lady Penhryn which no one can use any more for example.
What is wrong with sharing a NEW facility? Stromlo do it, Ourimbah do it and they work well together. Surely as a dual group there would be more 'clout' for continued maintenance and amenities?
Hawkeye, you say we need to use the site for our beginner riders - but what about Golden Jubilee or Old Man Valley which is getting a beginners only area. Or St Ives which doesn't have the room for motos and is used by many sporting groups already - all of whom SHARE! And as we all know, beginners tend to use Perimeter and Long Trail…
MTB riders have more trail access than any other user group on the Northern Beaches outside of walkers and we have just been given Bantry Bay back (which is fantastic news).
As for the noise Simon, just because you can't see the people who live on properties in Oxford Falls doesn't mean we can't hear the bikes. They can be heard all through Oxford Falls Valley from Red Hill, not to mention Red HIll itself and Beacon Hill adjoining… I can't speak for the Cromer side as I don't go over there. Also the Friends of Narrabeen Lagoon state that NPWS refused to take Red Hill on as they say they are understaffed and can't maintain it. As such Friends of Narrabeen Lagoon are lobbying to make Red HIll a State Park - with inclusion of sympathetic MTB trails…
Andrew hasn't come along and stated that the Motos want the tip to themselves. The fact is they have no where legal to ride at all closer than over an hour away from the beaches… whether we think they are a group who ought to be in the City or not is a moot point as they are here and they ARE growing. In the 13 years I have been riding at Red HIll on my horse, my bike and walking the dogs the increase in Motos is HUGE, particularly in the last two years or so.
I haven't read any reason other than you don't WANT to share. Not once have you (other than Slowpup), acknowledged that Andrew is willing to work on improving relations or that he is happy to put signs up or help the BMX guys with their tracks. No one has offered a solution other than to simply say 'no' and bugger off basically.
You may have missed some earlier points.
If Bare Creek is to be a viable mountain bike park it needs to cater for all levels. Jubilee is a skills area only. Both it Hornsby are a long way away and not viable for local schools supporting this project. Loosing half of what is already a highly constrained site makes things difficult.
Traveling to Wahroonga and Hornsby is also not viable for younger people without transport.
I understand noise and also sustainability very well and was offering feedback on their proposal which they forwarded to me. Criticism is warranted and the topics are something I'm familiar with helping paying clients in court, designing roads, rail, factories, recreational facilities and now writing policy for NSW State Government. Hearing something and compliance are different things.
Andrew and I have already spoken a few times, swapped emails and are arranging a walk through some areas.
There is a high level of frustration over the late proposal in recent weeks by the moto group. Others have been attending afternoon meetings for around 5 years working towards this outcome. Unfortunately this has not always been vented constructively.
Having worked for 5.5 years trying to find solutions for mountain biking and knowing how difficult that is I am struggling to find technical and political solutions for motocross bikes in this part of Sydney. The last 5.5 years work for mountain biking has been purely about political solutions. The technical solutions for mountain biking were there at the start.
We are also across plans for the State Park and independently raised this idea with State and Friends a number of years ago. TrailCares original and founding mission initially conducted by staff within a multinational consultancy was to achieve this. However step one ended up being to first change NPWS's policy and strategy towards mountain biking. Without their leadership it was difficult to get other land managers on board as everyone's default policy is thar of national parks.
We also understand the issues the State has in turning this into National Park. Through a lot of work we have gained acceptance and support with Friends. The only way a State Park and further protection will get up is by demonstrating its wider value as a recreation area. The area is not valued at State level enough on environmental grounds alone to protect it. This is why we are all lobbying for the park. It won't get up without support from recreational groups and we are the largest.
What ideas to you have?
Im trying to get a hold of Brett Buttler or perhaps you may be able to offer me a copy of the current Bare Creek proposal.
Ive been trying to get a copy but it seems no one will give me a copy for some reason. Being that its proposed for state lands it should be readily available?????
Thanks Christine for the kind words.
Simon is there a user pay style system for bare creek or will it be offered for free? I cant imagine too many young people would pay to use an area when there is already so much existing infrastructure already available. I know i would be keen to try it once but for me it would be a novelty as I ride when and where i want to and I doubt I would pay any amount of money when i can ride freely in other areas. If the area was shared with Motos it would only offer to improve the area long term. Costs would be shared, insurances, all manner of costs would be split between a user group who generates a significant income in all of its sports. The level of track developement / maintenance we could offer is incredible if we could only get the MTB group to listen to us with an open mind. We could share the entire site week on week off and we could offer to maintain the tracks. What you need to remember is we are not planning this site for pro riders on 450cc motorcross bikes. We are planning this for parents and kids. I dont know of any kid who can rip more dirt up on there little 50cc, 70cc or 85cc than a push bike. The largest motorcycle we would plan to have on this site would be a 250cc four stroke. Nothing larger would be permitted and all noise restrictions would apply. I tested a 450cc motox bike on the site with baffle out reved on and off to full noise with the exhaust pointed at the houses (two bikes where used) and we still did not get a reading. we took readings from each of the closest houses and on the site with still no reading. The evidence is there for noise testing.
Cheers,
Andrew
A modern 250cc four stroke still can pump out 30-40kW. The kids 85cc two stroke still rip out 20kW. Plenty enough to rip up dirt.
http://www.dirtrider.com/features/141_1006_2010_...
Mountain bikes are limited to 0.3kW.
I used to be able to mess the place up on my uncles farm on 1980's 250cc, 110cc and 90cc fours growing up.
The 50cc four stroke scooter was struggling to shift dirt but still fun jumping drainage ditches! Just had to watch out for landing the small wheels in rabbit holes.
I think opportunities to share tracks would be very limited. I think a mountain bikers definition of damage is very different.
I get what you are saying about your noise test. Still think it will be difficult to meet criteria and legislation. These sorts of activities are better located adjacent to major roads such as Mona Vale.
What are the opportunities to increase the area within St Ives show ground? Seems like there is more unused space there than half of Belrose?
Also across the road on HART land?
Some years ago people worked really hard to save St Ives Showground from being developed for netball courts.
It is a very busy shared use venue which is in full use all year around...I don't understand where you would suggest the bikes go? Horses also use the area regularly for the cross country course which wraps around the outside...as well as holding competitions of all sorts there, along with the motocross people, the dog training people, the soccer, touch football and family picnics to name just the ones I know about.
Whilst I understand that you have been working for years on the Bare Creek site, I still don't understand why it is so offensive to you to share it.
I also think it would be nice to get a feel from other MTB riders about Andrews suggestions...
Didn't know about the cross country horse track. I have only been there to take noise measurements for a client when it was full of Motos.
Offensive is a strong word if that is aimed at me and I don't appreciate it. We are only pointing out aspects that are concerning riders and where we feel that their proposal has issues to address.
Again, what suggestions do you have Christine? I thought St Ives given it already has a small area for Motos and lots of bush and tracks that seem to be already chopped up around the perimeter.
Why would I need to have any suggestions when Andrew seems to have a viable one? And if I did, it would not be to encroach on other established user group areas such as St Ives.
I still fail to understand why you appear to have no interest in discussing or working with Andrews group at all.
As you said, its taken years and years of work from various people for the council and government etc to accept that MTB is a recognised sport that needs places to ride …as such we are getting more trails and we are delighted.
Having been through that for so long why would you not have some inkling of empathy for the Motos who are in a similar position as us but running behind? They too have had a massive increase in their sport. They too want somewhere to ride. And finally they have someone who wants to work with another group to improve relations. Surely they could do with some help from a group that has been down the same road, regardless of whether its Bare Creek or another area that pops up...
Why is it 'too far' for our beginners to travel to OMV, Terrey Hills or Jubilee but not too far for their beginners to travel to Pacific Park, Ourimbah or Wattagans to learn to ride?
Bare Creek I know has had loads of work put into it by the MTB community, however, things tend to change over a process that takes literally years and now, perhaps is a good time to reassess to see if it CAN work with a sharing strategy...by discussing potential variations with Andrews group.
Andrew seems to me to be quite pragmatic and open to suggestions and ways of working things out. Getting caught up in a noise test isn't addressing the question of whether its possible to share. That is my point and question.
You are obviously emotive and not reading and understanding things. Hard to have a discussion with you and I'm over trying.
I am taking offense at your tone and picture painting. We have been trying to provide constructive feedback on issues with their proposal. We didnt have to do this. This is based on the planning and approval process in NSW, political issues and common sense resolution to unofficial trails.
I will send you through my mobile number as hopefully this will make things quicker.
I have agreed to meet up and go through Red Hill with them.
As president of a large organisation I can only go so far beyond the support of people that have paid to support me and are actively involved. We also do not get paid to do this and generally get in trouble with our wives for the time we spend doing this.
As I said before I don't know what is a political and technical solution to the issue. They also don't have support in the right places and we will cop a lot of flack in lobbying for them and damage relationships we have spent a lot of time building.
I've been doing a lot of trailbuilding and maintenance for a long time. Some of that has been done on old moto trail once they have been told they can no longer legally access the area but mtbs can. The reason for the use of these trails for mtbing is because land owners generally don't want to see even more trails going in when there is often a criss-crossing network of trails that have already been ridden in, despite the fact that is how they have been constructed. Never in my experience have they been constructed with any thought to erosion and sediment control or ongoing maintenance issues. They are simply ridden in by motos. It has then been up to mtbers to get these trails going again using IMBA guidelines as the basis for rebuilding/maintaining. I have had motos ride past while doing trail work on singletrack. Not once have any said thanks, or offered to help in the future or apologised for being in an area they know they aren't allowed to be in. I have had most of them yell abuse, or roost up the singletrack, or make excuses about the firetrails 10m away, or just speed past expecting me to move for them or combinations of those things.
Unfortunately I haven't met a friendly, cooperative moto rider. I know of access to at least 3 areas popular for mtbing that have been closed to everyone due to the actions of motos and 4wds because it is easier to keep everyone out than allow one group looking after the place to continue accessing it.
I can appreciate and respect that Andrew has been civil in his posts. But if the group he is representing wants somewhere to ride they have to do the work to gain the access, not jump on the back of a long time, hard working group of mtbers and hitch a ride. Without having read his proposal, only his posts here, that is how it comes across. What benefit is there for mtbers to help a group who have the potential to do significant damage to trails gain access to an area they currently do not have access to?
Based on what I've experienced I don't see how a shared mtb/moto area would work in reality. The two groups ideas about what constitutes damage to a trail is too different and it would be too difficult to maintain the separation of areas between the two groups.
Andrew good to see you are being proactive but the group you seem to represent(50cc to 125cc juniors) is not the group which seems to cause us MTB'rs the most grief!-they are the 250cc upwards riders!-so to have the shared facility you wish to have will not stop the problem we have or land owners have with Moto's will not cease.In the Hunter Valley here namely Cessnock,Moto riding recently came to ahead when someone strung some fencing wire across a well known Moto riding area causing injury to a teenager-local well known Motorbike shop owner Chris Watson(really nice bloke)proposed to local council/state gov. to give some land to be used for Moto riding-have not heard anymore about this?-Also Andrew if you do get the land needed you will get the dreaded phone call "you told us that this would stop illegal riding in this area" when someone chews up a park or bushland area!-do you have the correct response for this question?
CC, I understand your desire to get motos off Red Hill. Unfortunately, for a whole bunch of reasons, Bare Creek is one of the least viable places to move them.
Yes, it partially ticks the noise mitigation box (not completely) and the site is not a focus for environmentalists who might object, but there are a whole lot of other show stoppers that mean even if there were no other proposals afoot, the site manager will choose to do nothing rather than accept the risks that come with admitting them. I have some exposure to the issues through my work history in related industries.
I ride other trails in the state where motos have shared access, and with a certain amount of work, positive relationships, and building mtb trails in a way that strongly discourages moto use, it can be successful. And it helps being a small country town where everybody knows everybody else and there's no anonymity for moto riders to hide behind. The site features necessary to make that work here are absent.
So it's not about not wanting to share in general, it's about issues to do with this particular site, and this particular group. Andrew's track record demonstrated on this thread of not wanting to admit unpalatable facts and only seeing what he wants to see will make him and his group challenging to work with and hold accountable. They offer no real upsides for us, so I can't see a good reason that makes exposing ourselves to that kind of pain worthwhile.
I'm not going to be more specific in a public forum because it's not up to us to do Andrew's homework for him. He or his group needs to outlay the funds, invest the time, and do the work themselves to support their own proposal.
Seems what you understand about this proposal is very little and your constant threads (which pose no real fact only opinion) are one of the reasons motos and mtbers do not get along. I came on to this thread to educate and be educated. You have had your say. Thank you.
The only exposure you need is to get out onto Belrose tip and tell me that "the site features necessary to make that work are absent". It seems your only interest is excluding motos from areas which where previously used by motos (Not mtbers).
And consider this Hawkeye. Im the only group that has come up with multiple solutions to share and work together on this site and Im the only group who has offered to help out and discuss these matters yet you still choose to provide false information and pass it of as fact. You want to stop riders at RedHill. Work with me not against me, you want to eliminate riders from where you ride. Work with me not against me. The simplest way i could put this is your enemies enemy is your friend.
Noise testing: DONE
Surveyed the land: DONE
Erosion: N/A due to riding on man made tracks and maintained daily (as I already have this experience in track building and maintenance for major sporting events)
Track Design: Done and approved by majority of moto riders and businesses
Insurance: Readily available
Anything else you want to know?
We aim to get the juniors out as well as some of the seniors. We wont be able to get them all. No proposal will ever stop illegal riding. We set the limit at 250cc because they are the point at which excessive noise can be managed. 450s can be managed too but requires more effort (have you ever met a rider who can ride a 450 too its limit? pretty rare to find). It will also give us a platform to provide education which will filter through the moto community over time such as where you can legally ride motos in the local area, how to interact with other area users such as mtbers, horse riders and walkers. What to do when you come across these people and to slow down and ride quietly past houses. (the same education i had when i started riding. Luckily i learnt the rules when i was young). Yes I heard about local land owners doing that and I hope they find the person. I have come across areas similiar to that in the bush. Sadly if you buy an area which is frequented by motos legally riding then there is not much you can do to stop them. Attempted murder is not the answer. However education is the key. A poster at the local pub or newspaper, local mcc club will do more good than you can imagine. WFMP had stories in the Manly Daily and we got ZERO complaints about it. We actually got people calling me up wanting to join in. This is how Motorcycling Council of NSW got involved.
It seems Chris Watson and I should work together on these issues. If you can pass on my details that would be great. I have some great people on the committee and Im sure we could work together on any issues facing motos today.
Thanks for your comments.
I understand your interactions with Motos not being pleasant. But i can asure you the WFMP is a viable option and I will gladly present it at any meeting. I wont hand it out anymore as clearly i have some information to add to it (some people who i have provided it too take it for what they read without the internal knowledge of being a moto - clearly its ok to a moto rider so I will have it looked over by a person out of the sport).
Even though I dont use the areas that Mtbers use I thank you for the efforts you make. Its people like you who have expanded the horizon for other sports to use the areas like red hill. Im still majorly impressed by the track works that have been done up there and will work to no end to ensure that motos are educated about the areas.
The proposal does include educational material (its not just after land but to educate locally to ensure the interaction between the two groups is improved). If your in the local area WFMP will have posters coming out shortly.
Cheers,
Andrew
We have discussed the trail care involvement before and I understand the situation there. Political suicide is the expression haha.
We didnt come on here to have our homework done and we are forging our own relationships. You may however want to consider working with us for the education campaign which is launching soon once we receive the funding for it (Im putting the hard works of moto riders working to raise funds to first improve the relationships between our too groups... and other groups).
Im meeting with people at Red Hill today and tomorrow. I do remember calling but I will PM you my phone number. (I finish work at 3pm so my time in the afternoons is abundant?. I will leave it up to you to organise a time that suits you. Most days after 3pm Monday to Friday is fine. Weekends can be hard to organise as thats when i volunteer most of my time (I have definitely over stepped the mark this year).
Regards,
Andrew
Saying I understand someone's position doesn't mean I necessarily share it. That said, her concerns are real and need solutions.
Andrew I'm not opposed to motos at Red Hill in principle. If the behaviour, environmental damage and noise issues can be successfully addressed to the satisfaction of stakeholders like Christine and the other residents, the land managers, environmental groups, ourselves, and walkers, then there would be no reason not to share it with you.
It's great that you're taking some initiative with these issues, it's long overdue.
If you can demonstrate some ability to get traction (pardon the pun) in resolving them and deliver on the promise then I'm more than happy to revise my opinion about your group and motos ability to be responsible bush users.
Andrew, I'm opposed to motos at Red Hill. Hawkeye may give his in principle support but plenty of others would beg to differ.
I've followed this thread since it began but have held off responding.
I ride or walk at Red Hill/Cromer at least 4 times a week and have done for several years. The frequency of motos using the area has definitely increased in that time.
No matter what the weather or conditions, including last week in the torrential rain they are there, I'd attach a pic but have no idea how. I've never seen the trails in worse condition.
Just this morning I walked in along the newly graded fire road from Cromer Rd and noted the fresh moto tyre tracks. This is despite the fact that new fencing has been placed at the entrance and there are obvious signs prohibiting them.
The motos I see up there are unlikely to be attracted to your sanitised motorbike park for the same reason I find places like Manly Dam and Old Mans Valley not so attractive. Great for what they are but..... I hope that Red Hill never becomes like those places. I enjoy the fact that I can share the trails with the walkers, trail runners, horses and dog walkers.
Unfortunately what makes Red Hill such a great place for mountain bikes as far as I'm concerned is also the reason that motos can access it with impunity. That is, it is relatively isolated but right in the middle of suburbia.
I'm sceptical that no matter the outcome of Trailcare's advocacy for riding in Red Hill, motos will just continue to ride wherever they want. The guys that chew up the single track despite the weather or the ones who turn their number plates over so they can't be ID'ed obviously know they shouldn't be there.
I'm not against a moto park but fear that encouraging more kids onto motos will just increase the pressure for more access to areas like Red Hill.