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Trail information St. Ives Showground
Would the person or persons who last week (approx. 11th Sept.) seen doing track ? maintenance on riding trails leading out of St. Ives showground please consider what they are doing e.g.digging trenches across the trails to drain water in approx. 25 locations, laying sticks and branches across muddy sections dist.approx. 5 metres. I am under the impression riding a mountain bike is in the challenge of riding natural terrain.
My wife and I are horse riders, you obviously do not understand the visual effect this has on horses,makes them wary of unnatural appearance of the tracks. Last Friday one of your branches hooked under my wifes horse causing it to buck and bolt, my wife falling off, breaking ribs and blacking out for a short time.
On another issue, National Parks do not appreciate human interferance with our natural bush land. We were all locked out 20 years ago and from my experience they have the power to do the same again resulting in bikes and horses refused entry into our pristine parks.
Respectfully please give this matter some thought, thank you.
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Sorry to hear about your wife's injuries. It sounds pretty serious.
I hope she recovers quickly and there is no lasting damage.
While what you say is true about riding natural terrain, a major issue we face is the sustainability of the trails we ride. You face the same issues on a larger scale as your rides' hooves have a much greater impact due to their greater mass and power.
Sustainable trails do not mean maintenance free trails. I expect this work has been done with sustainability in mind, and from your description follows common bike trail practice used elsewhere to manage water flow and corral riders onto sustainable riding lines.
However, you raise valid points about some of our practices not taking horses needs into account on trails we share.
It's possible the "trail fairy" is unaware horses are still using them. I know some are signed as horse trails but in over 3 years of riding in this area I have seen a horse rider on them only once, very recently. I had not seen so much as a single hoofprint until this occasion.
I'm not as directly involved as I used to be and I don't know who has been doing this work, but perhaps if we could meet to discuss mutual concerns we could come to an agreement about suitable trail maintenance practices that meet everybody's needs.
Please accept our best wishes for your wife's speedy recovery.
Would be happy to meet and discuss these issues,?St Ives showground remote car facility at your convenience.
... In my 20+ years of riding mtb's around the northern suburbs of Sydney, I have never seen any evidence of horse riders being proactive about maintaining the tracks they use. As Hawkeye notes, horses do significanlty more damage than mtbs's. By all means let's discuss what in the way of trail maintenance might spook horses and see if we can minimise that problem, but let's not get too apologteic about people actually doing something to stop the trails deteriorating into a horse track......
SNIP "On another issue, National Parks do not appreciate human interferance with our natural bush land. We were all locked out 20 years ago and from my experience they have the power to do the same again resulting in bikes and horses refused entry into our pristine parks"
So how do you stop your horse from polluting the trails with manure that results in seeds and grasses being introduced into said pristine environment?
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-11-13/horse-dung...
And while were chatting always remember to say Hi or thank you when a MTBer stops for your horse on the trails -its a mark of respect and courtesy that is not often acknowledged which makes me wonder why I bother.
But like all things the majority do the right thing and its only a few that ruin it for everybody
Lets take breath and calm down a bit, eh?
This is - as i understand it - the St Ives singletrack section that is a designated horse trail. Being upset after one's wife has had an incident that could easily have turned out much worse is to be expected, and it's natural that he may not be as diplomatic as normal.
I agree there are a number of things he's said that are inaccurate and reflect misunderstandings, but we'll have an opportunity to talk those through in a couple of weeks.
So lets cut him some slack. Busted ribs are not fun, and being knocked unconscious is not something that should be repeated.
I have been riding the legal horse trail leading out of the showground for 30 years and it did not start to deteriorate till the increase and over use by mountain bikes starting 4 years ago. Without the overuse of bikes the trails would still be in the condition they were in 4 years ago and track maintenance wouldn't be necessary. In reference to the comment about horse riders not doing track maintenance' some of you bike people do not realize National Park do not appreciate interference for what ever reason you may think, what it will do is give them excuse to close the park and this is the main reason why horse riders do not take it upon themselves to do any form of maintenance work. I for one do not sit up there all day counting the number of horses or bikes, in the last 4 years as an example,riding twice a week I wouldn't have met more than a dozen horses. In speaking to the house owner that the track passes behind and the showground staff statements have been made to the tune of "hundreds of bike riders over the weekends".
Anyone who thinks a National Park than backs onto residential and industrial land in a big city is 'pristine' is an idiot.
Having strict policies and limiting who can enter a proper wilderness area is fair enough.
Said it before though - you won't get many people from cities who can appreciate wilderness areas unless you give them a small taste of what they might be like by letting them in (in the most enjoyable way for them) to urban parks.
...how do you think the trail got there? It was created for and BY horse riders. My brother in law was one of the many who went out and helped build it.
It's not rocket science to leave trails alone or else manage with sympathetic adjustments.
MTB riders need to remember horse riders are out there and act accordingly. Unless you are at Awaba or Ourimbah the trails are there to share.
I'm really sorry to hear about your wife's accident Trailrider. I hope they are both ok.
Btw... MTB riders, falling off a horse is far more dangerous and scary than coming off a bike. Believe me! And I can't imagine any of you would enjoy the vision of a solo horse racing towards you in the bush either!
Btw... There is no evidence that horses cause more erosion than bikes. However, I fail to see the rationale in upsetting another legal,trail group..
Oh and Giantnut., whilst I would only ride my horse up that way during the week I always speak to MTB riders at Red Hill and thank them... If they slow down or stop. However! Sometimes when on a horse we can feel that it's not happy and wants to do something in which case the rider will be concentrating on not losing it so would be less likely to speak or say thank you...nerves make us speechless!
There is an interesting article here...
http://www.uvm.edu/~snrvtdc/trails/ComparingHiki...
And here...
https://www.imba.com/resources/research/trail-sc...
My experiences in my area show me that horses do significantly more damage to my local trails than mountain bikes. It's just something I have to live with. It would be nice if they helped repair the damage they did though.
The evidence is pretty clear from independent studies that horse impacts are noticably more severe than either mountain bikes or hiking, which are similar.
On flat trails their impacts would be minimal, but on steeper gradients the propensity of steel-clad hooves to dig up and loosen the trail surface is fairly obvious to the even the most casual observer. Water flow then does the rest.
Trailrider's assertions that erosion on the singletrack horse trails has increased since the massive influx of mountain bikers may well be accurate, most obviously in the parts that tend to remain wet for some time after rains.
However, before anyone makes assertions about what National Parks does or doesn't take a dim view of, you should be aware that we are in ongoing contact with them. Until we have formal trails and management plans in place, I can confidently way that informal maintenance is better than no maintenance.
We need to agree on what strategies can be used that don't cause problems for horses on the trails we share.
I would also like agreement from horse riders to stay off trails where gradient renders them especially erosion-prone from horse hooves and therefore unsustainable.
The loop trail from the golf driving range we know as "Muppet Show" in particular is one I have in mind as being inappropriate and unsustainable for horse usage.
That's just funny. MTB riders go on any and every trail they can find...
Muppet show would be excellent on a horse!
You ARE MTB riding in a horsy area...
Oh! And since barefoot is all the rage there are less steel horse shoes
That's just funny. MTB riders go on any and every trail they can find...
Muppet show would be excellent on a horse!
You ARE MTB riding in a horsy area...
Just not sustainable, currently.
Unless the horsy folk want to chip in with some maintenance... (that's a hint) ... but it seems there is a reluctance to help.
Without that contribution, what I can see happening is this: those taking responsibility for keeping the Muppet Show trail in good condition getting sick of the damage being done to their good work, and then starting to put measures in place to make it tricky for horses, to discourage them.
That's not by any means a threat, just one assessment of what people are likely to do to protect their investment.
...so a horse rider asks for some awareness from MTB riders on a horse trail built so horse riders can safely get to the show grounds and somehow you turn that conversation round to a veiled threat that if horse riders (who you all claim are scarce anyway) choose to ride muppet show that the builders won't maintain it?
Maybe best to get back on track with the original op and consider other trail users...
Spending a bit of time on here can give a false impression of what's happening in the "real world" but I sometimes think our enthusiasm for mtbing can blind us to the needs of others in the community and lead us to pushing for more mtb facilities at other's expense. St Ives has traditionally been a horsey area but we've moved in and taken a trail. Bare creek had a few proposals for various activities, some for multi use, but we pushed for a mtb exclusive facility.
Maybe we need to think a bit more about other land users and not try to appropriate every piece for ourselves.
Equitesmotopluiaephobis = (from the latin, equos, "horse, steed", rain “pluviae’ spanish, motorciklo “moto” and φόβος, phóbos, "fear") the fear of some crazy horse on a moto in the rain tearing up our precious tracks?
I have half a mind to call up 2GB and ask Ray; do they even pay rego??
Seriously.. there are bugger all horse riders around here, and sure we can all point to study that proves.... but really? are there even enough horses out on our local tracks to be of any real concern?
I plan to just be nice and if I see a horse (and hopefully its rider..) out on the track, I shall simply stop, smile, say hello and wait for them to pass.
Let's see references please.
The trails are there to share. 'nuf said?
The citations were provided in the post above mine.
As for making threats - veiled or otherwise - I don't know how I can be any clearer that is specifically what I am *not* doing.
Yes! trails are for sharing.
I'm simply trying to point out a risk.
...perhaps a better way to educate yourself regarding horse riding and the work the local people do would be for you take the time to join the North Shore Horse and Pony Association or the Horse Alliance...
there were trails everywhere for everyone and no one was angry.
Got back on Friday and shocked how angry Sydney is.
Horse riders need to understand mountain bikers see disturbance of dirt as damage. Lots of depressions from hoof prints would be documented on an IMBA audit. Had this discussion with trail bike riders as what they see as a rooster tail and a nice loose surface is just normal riding for many of them and not what they call damage.
By the sounds of it these tracks aren't ideal for any user group sustainability wise without reroute or a lot of work. The current problems may also not be just bike related. We came in the last few years from seven years of drought. Many places are suffering as there is water running and soaking into places not seen for a long time.
Parks don't have the resources to maintain the tracks we have whether official or not. The closure of some tracks has been an environmental disaster as maintaince on badly router tracks stopped resulting in mass erosion.
Work together and chill out. Unofficial help from the horse riders would be welcome.
I grew up riding horses around the farm and did some competition at pony club level for a couple of years. Riding in the bush was not allowed although we had access to the beach.
It's a privilege for any of us to be in the bush.
Well said Simon.
There's nothing in Sydney to be angry about. The sun shines. The weather is warm. Life is easy... if you have the right attitude.
I absolutely do not understand why a lot of people actually seem to look for things to be unhappy about.
Relax guys and just enjoy.
Who is angry, but fairly certain that any man wirth his sakt would be irritable if his wife was knocked unconscious due to some one else's ignorance (in the true form).
If Trailrider is who I suspect they are extremely accomplished horse riders with well trained horses used to many different things...and can get those horses round trails most MTB riders would struggle with!
Thanks, Simon.
Re. the sticks in the mud, I see little benefit in the way the sticks are lying. Particularly on the rock base in the small creek on Muppets. Putting some sticks to the side to discourage track widening may have merit, but laying them at 90 deg to direction of travel is more of a hindrance than an improvement.
So to whomever is doing this, I say think about how your faggot work may be improved.
First time in about a month due to a dose of bronchitis a fortnight ago. So things could have changed substantially since trailrider's wife's fall.
The only spot I saw sticks *across* the trail today was in the rocky creek crossing Pancakes refers to on Muppet Show. All the other locations (and they were few) they were either placed parallel leaving a trail about handlebar width, or placed to plug gaps in the bush cover and discourage short-cutting corners. This has clearly been done to corral riders and keep them on the designed route and to discourage trail braiding on Muppet Show.
The official horse trail, however, had almost none of this work, only remnants and debris off-trail. I was expecting to see more, in more locations. At least, there was nothing to speak of in the scan zone I look at when riding the trail.
The drainage work has pretty much disappeared.
Apart from the creek crossing, this appears to mostly be resolved now through natural causes?