The Bewildered Possum

If they came in whining that other kids were using skateboards on the ramps that they had built on public land for their BMXs, would you tell them to STFU and get back out there, share the ramp, tell an anecdote about kids in poor countries who have nothing, make a new friend and work out how to play together nicely or would you encourage them to take anti-social action that affects the fun of others?

And you're unhappy because you will have to share the trail for <2 hours**, potentially riding a bit slower here and there and occasionally stopping and dismounting. So instead of getting around this by going to any of the very good legal and non-legal trails all over Sydney that you all undoubtedly know, you CHOOSE to NOT RIDE altogether by doing trail maintenance? Well played boys, well played.

** If the whole race event takes 2 hours then that will consider the time taken for the first runners to run from the start line to the beginning of TBP and for the slowest to finish. So the actual time that TBP will have runners on it will most likely be much less than 2 hours.

Given the action taken so far (Hawkeye's contact) the organisers will know that the "trail work" has been done for no other reason than to cause disruption to their event. You'd be an imbecile to think otherwise. Is there really any point in pi$$ing the racers and organisers off? Runners now know about TBP and will no doubt look to use it outside of races. Basically the cat is out of the bag. Unfortunate given all of the hard work but not to be unexpected.

Rather than acting like a flea arguing ownership of a dog, perhaps look towards a cooperative and harmonious outcome. I would presume there would be a better case for being aligned with other outdoor pursuers than being against them...? As Flynny has pointed out, many MTB trails were originally 4wd tracks, moto tracks, walking tracks, horse riding tracks and fire trails. Until the trail becomes officially designated as MTB only, you have to be prepared to share it and just get along.

Why not just let the event go ahead. If there is any demonstrable damage to the trail, take pics (preferably before and after) then ask the organisers to volunteer their time to help rebuild it. If they decline, simply state your disappointment and from here you will be looking to amend the trail in a way what will continue to benefit the requirements of the target user group (MTB) which will potentially make the trail unfriendly to runners and that you would strongly discourage further running there due to the risks posed by an uneven and unstable slippery surfaces leading to rolled ankles, twisted knees, buggered meniscus, knackered metatarsals etc.

You could even go to the January event to observe, talk to the runners and ask if they ride or might they be interested in trying MTB? Would they like to take part in the next trail maintenance day (then explain how trail damage happens), ask what they enjoy about the course (this might help in making changes that suit both parties or at least allow you to understand how to build a course that doesn't suit them)?
Wouldn't that look good? "Hey these MTBers are a friendly bunch and are very gracious in "playing together" on their fantastic track. I'll stick up for them if they every have land access issues"

But if you do choose to disrupt the event by either building or riding, a few requests so that runners don’t perceive the MTB community as being childish, unhelpful and unwilling to cooperate.

- Be polite and courteous. If you are going to proceed with the "trail works", please consider how you will conduct yourselves when you are approached by runners, event organisers, marshals etc.
- If riding, ensure you use the bells that should be installed on your bike to warn the runners. This will not only make other trail users aware of you but also be important in the event of an accident and descent into a legal issue. It is a legal requirement to have a bell installed on your bike. Not having one and being involved in a collision could not only be painful for you, the other party and your hip pocket but also the future of TBP.
- Don't enter into any arguments. Politely direct them to speak to the race organisers who in turn can contact a MTB representative through a central point of contact (a gmail account or similar). I suspect that including the NOBMOB name in discussions would be a big no no.
- Put up clear and unambiguous signs warning of trail work ahead.
- Don't put the runners in any sort of physical risk with placement of trail tools, bikes to run around, rocks etc.
- Don’t forget that the runners could very easily arrange a mass run/walk on TBP or any other shared trail to do nothing more than irritate you.

Stay classy Sydney!

@mattp, it's not just the race day, it's the activity and (even more so) the attitude that has been displayed outside event times that is becoming a safety issue.

Unlike Muppet Show and St Ives horse trail, restricted sight lines are a dominant feature of this track. A trail runner at cruising speed coming the other way and mountain bike colliding will not be pretty.

Thanks for the rest of your post, though, it is thoughtful and sound advice.

I don’t think I’ve been on the track so I cant really comment on the suitability for a multi-use trail in both directions. Based on what you’re saying though I don’t doubt that there is considerable danger and it sounds like it should try to be designated as bikes only.

My concern is the way some have proposed addressing the race – its very antagonistic and wont (IMO) do the MTB community any favours. Being the bigger person will be the best course of action.

Anyway, it seems that things are moving in the right direction so I hope it all works out best for all.

LOL!!
Thanks for the response but I think you must have missed my points and not bothered to read everything! It looks like Hawkeye and C3PO do though and I'm sure it will all works itself out nicely.

All the best,

Merry Xmas!!

Happy to help Hawkeye.
Im a chippy, so i can get the concrete and put the signs in.
Brendan

You really want to put up signs, proper signs, on a not legalized track? What will they say, that this trail is ridden by mountain bikers? You can't just make a bikes only track without any permission to do so. You might love this track and I totally understand this but what you are about to do here is not constructive at all. Talk to the council, the national park, tell them what this track is about but dont claim land thats not yours. That'll put as all backwards.
This is not a bike park. Go ride in parks when you cant handle other people on your tracks. Being a mountain biker means to take it slow when you dont see around the next corner. You guys should really head over to Europe and ride in some real mountains to get an idea how it works. It works because all parties respect each other and not because the parties fight against each other.

Can I have an answer to my question please?

Would making it one way resolve the majority of the collision risks to people's satisfaction?

No it is not our land. Yes the trail is unofficial but it is not illegal.

Playing devils advocate here...

If you put signs up what level of responsibility do you then accept if there is an accident?

If someone wanted to blame someone for an accident between a runner and a mtber it's not going to be hard to find out who built the informal trail or who put signs up or who is helping to publically encourage it's use.

Everyone is riding a bike fitted with all of the legal gear like a bell that they can ring before blind corners aren't they? And riding in control so they can stop in an emergency? Runners are aware of their surrounding by not wearing headphones, etc.

But after the weekend I've changed my tune.

I can wait for an iZombie going the same direction. Having the runner come the opposite direction and appear suddenly at speed around any of the dozens of blind corners is more of a collision risk with more severe consequences in my view.

There is just as much of a problem with riders doing the same thing.

I hear what you're saying re commuting but the sight lines on shared use paths are usually quite open, opposite to this situation.

Yes but councils erect them where they have a responsibility to the public (in theory), on their land. Is whoever erecting these signs accepting responsibility if there is an accident?

They don't stop people from trying to make some 'easy money' either. The Civil Liability Act might mean the council could successfully defend themselves against a claim, but they still need to pay for that defense and there is no guarantee they will get that money back.

not that I'm aware of for this parcel of land.

There is definitely something being lost in internet land translation.

If someone decides to erect signs warning of the dangers of an activity that person has obviously decided there is a risk involved in participating in that activity. I'd be surprised if an adequate lawyer couldn't argue that.

The legal advice I received regarding the CLA is that erecting signs, trail grading, etc is appropriate to defend against negligence but it also provides a target for someone who wants to blame someone else for their accident (if there is one). Chances are very good that a claim would be dismissed but it costs money to defend against a claim.

Below is the information I received from a local council and from a mtb organisation...

________________________________________________________________________________________________

The Civil Liability & Personal Responsibility Act 2002, was established in response to a number of very expensive liability claims being awarded against Public Authorities in the courts from claimants who had injured themselves while undertaking activities that are now classified as dangerous recreational activities. This created a ridiculous all encompassing liability on Public authorities that lead to spiralling Public Liability premiums & almost to the stage where cover was not going to be provided at all. The enactment of the CLA Act has provided some scope for Public authorities to defend themselves against these claims, while still ensuring that a duty of care remains.

In essence, activities such as Mountain Biking would be classified under the CLA Act as a Dangerous Recreational Activity, that entails OBVIOUS risks to the participant. The owner of the land/facility that allows such activities has a duty of care to provide a facility that is safe to use, maintained to a satisfactory level and must provide warnings in the form of signage and/or waivers of the hazards present to the individuals using the facility. The individual in turn takes responsibility for participating in a recognised dangerous recreational activity & as such acknowledges that this carries an obvious risk of injury should something go wrong during such participation.

The matter of liability is always a vexed one & open to legal challenge and there is no black or white answer. Each & every case is dealt with on it's own merits. In very "simple" terms, the basis of any claim would be looked at as follows;
• Negligence - was the incident/injury caused by the result of a negligent act by the land/facility owner? For example, if the track had not been maintained and there was an obvious defect that would/should have been picked up during an inspection that did not occur prior to the event & as a result a participant suffered injury, then liability may be apportioned to the land/facility owner.
• Accidental - did the injury occur purely from the participation where the person simply made an error in judgement? For example, the track is in good order & all checks had been made, risk warnings provided (waivers signed) etc and the person simply lost control and suffered an injury, then there would be likely be no liability on the land/facility owner.

As discussed at our meeting, there is no finite response when it comes to liability as when someone suffers a loss, particularly a significant one that affects there ability to earn an income (e.g. paraplegic) they will inevitably seek compensation to cover this loss & as previously stated, the facts will then be determined in a court of law.

In saying this, provided that the facility is built & maintained to a proper standard & controlled on the day of the event or by adequate signage at other times, the risk is more on the user than the land/facility owner.

________________________________________________________________________________________________

These are the steps you (and the club) need to take to be covered under this legislation, i.e.
NSW Civil Liability Act 2002

1) Trail designed, built and maintained to IMBA Aust guidelines (as per attached)
2) All trail filters, technical trail features (TTF) and obstacles to have appropriate fall zones - usually I recommend a minimum of 3 m radius for slow obstacles where high speed features may need 10 to 15m radius to be safe. This is not to say that the fall zone area is free of vegetation (trees and shrubs) or fallen timber for example, more so that the area is devoid of potentially hazardous items like sharp stumps, barbed wire or litter which may be deemed negligent.
3) Provide adequate warnings via trail ratings and signage. Larger obstacles and TTFs may require additional "caution signs" to provide a duty of care. Detail maps will also help to avoid anyone getting lost (obviously).The Rules of the Trail also help to encourage safe and ethical use of the trails. (Also attached)
4) This legislation also stipulates that waivers regarding the risk of the activity for formal events or membership will also help to protect the land owner / manager.
5) Trail maintenance is rigorous, acceptable and that trail hazard reporting mechanisms are in place.
6) The legislation also protects land managers / owners from incidents that occur as a result of normal occurrences such as a tree falling over a trail at night and the first rider(s) in the morning crashing into the log. That is; land managers / owner are not responsible for natural events, but are bound to remedy the situation as soon as reasonably possible. Furthermore, signage should reflect the inherent dangers of recreating in natural environments and encourage all trail users to apply the necessary caution as trail conditions change regularly particularly after significant weather events.

thus it seems to me that there is pretty good cover for land managers / owners in relation to this legislation if they are conscientious about their trail developments, particularly when working with clubs that carry their own PL and PI insurance for members etc

_________________________________________________________________________________________________

I believe that making the trail one way will make it a lot safer.

The speed that I go around some of the corners on the track and the fact that being so tight you are looking pretty much at your front wheel and not ahead means that a collision with someone coming the other direction at speed would be pretty hard to avoid.

We can argue about the legalities of it, but the signs will inform people a lot better about the trail and the direction it should be ridden and what the trail was primarily designed for.

I am interested in helping you place signs on the track and concreting them in and feel free to PM me.

I'm sure that Dreggsy would like his signs more permanent so that they stop being torn down.

Excluding runners is not the preferred outcome. The conflicts we're seeing that (by reports) have been escalating the last couple of weeks need action.

The event organisers permissions do not include this track.

@danielschipper, that's not like you. I was expecting something a little more ... considered.

Besides the collision risk, there are erosion impacts from riding the wrong way, particularly on uphill trails, and the intentions of the designer and builder really should be respected.

I'll set up a survey to see where the majority opinion lies.

I agree with a sign on education/information grounds. Something as simple as:

Warning
Mountain Bike Trail
Exit Only

Over time shear weight of numbers will make it unpleasant to run/ride it the "wrong" way. I don't think we say no runners, etc but just by putting up the above sign we educate people and hopefully avoid a few accidents. Over time it becomes the accepted it is enjoyable for MTBs only one way like MD.

If people want to ride it down hill or run it either way they will. The majority won't and it will be safer and it also avoids the "I didn't know" excuse.

Unfortunately the days of a quiet, off the beaten trail near Sydney are gone.

I get the other arguments but think this is a different trail given tightness and lack of viewing.

Happy to help Hawkeye in terms of labour or materials.

Cheers.

Thought I'd ride it again this morning with a studious eye. Lots of blind corners. Lots.
Primarily (maybe exclusively) it is a Mtb trail. Primarily designed to ride up. (And maybe a cheeky down when it's not too busy)
I would actively discourage the trails use as a regular training route for trail runners (unless perhaps there is clear direction that runners MUST yield to riders).
As far as a foot race on the trail. I say in the spirit of sportsmanship and collaboration, go for it. But, it must be clearly timetabled (such as a notice at all entry and exit points) and with plenty of advanced notice (30 days?). Realistically, the event would be over and done with in under 2 hours. IMHO I wouldn't want to see thus happen more than 4 times a year. It disrespects the the trails intended use (and perhaps main user group)
Im happy to give up a few hours a few times year for an organised and well communicated event. But I don't want to see it over run as a trail running training track.
Again, IMHO, if you run on this track, please, please, yield to the rider, it's easier for you to get completely out of the way, than it is for me. If you do, I'll be courteous and thankful in return. If you dont... Then I shall edit my post...
Cheers

I think if we sign the trail as an MTB trail, one way, a lot of the runner and rider behaviours will resolve themselves. It may not be necessary to say no peds.

Lets keep it simple.

I only worked out that it was supposed to be an uphill track after I rode it a few times and got some attitude from reasonably grumpy riders coming the up hill way.

I expect that most people that read this site should know that its uphill and ride it as such, being the first to give way when going downhill if you do ride it that way (when linking up with the dam top entrance).

But..in general; uphill or downhill, if I'm going too fast to make it unsafe then perhaps I'm just going too fast.. besides its not a closed race track nor a dedicated MTB trial and I just gotta live with the traffic and expect to stop at random times, when that happens then I have two choices "A" Smile and be the nice guy "B" be a grumpy ahole and make a real nob of myself.. I try to pick "A"

Oh.. and the sign? perhaps a simple "ride uphill direction please" would probably be a good start?

I took a walk along Ghania this evening to burn off some Christmas lunch... And with a broken wrist a walk in the rain is the only way I'll see the trail before March!

As I came out the end of the Bantry Bay fire trail when the Possum trail begins I was thinking of the current concerns.

One perspective is that there is about to be a huge influx of riders riding Gharnia and then Possum. The sheer numbers riding in an uphill direction, on bikes, should discourage other use.

I still disagree with "no entry, one way / no runners" signs, although that's more a general issue with rules, but see a trail etiquette sign as filling the gap. Perhaps as something less confronting it won't get torn down... And if it's cemented in with a decent pole and a couple of replacements at the ready the message should get through.

They need to be solidly fixed into the ground and permanent-looking, with appropriately professional lettering. While you'd hope people would respect it, and it might work in a small regional town where everybody knows everybody else, printing an A4 or A3 sheet, putting it in a plastic sleeve, and cable-tying it on a tree isn't going to do it in Sydney where the pool of riders numbers in the thousands.

I think the aluminium is going to be too hard. If we can get say some 10mm marine ply for the signboard, that might be sufficient, and actually more robust.

Looking into pre-cut vinyl lettering for use as masking... not cheap. About $150, by the time we add postage for 5 signs' worth (TBP has two entrances). And then we need paint.

I've had offers for timber and cement. Anyone out there with a vinyl cutting machine?

Not that I'm for illegally installing signs on an unofficial trail on oublic land but if you are going down that path business's like canneens signs would be able to do lazer etched Al for not much more (I think we got ours for less as we did the artwork ourselves) than what you are quoting for marine ply and vinyl letters.

There are laws about installing structures on public land hawkeye.

Just offering advice. If you choose to put signs up that up to you. Just giving you an option for a professional sign that may save you money. From someone who has been through similar before

@PS If you re-read the posts, while my thinking has developed as a result of feedback over the course of the thread, I'm not trying to exclude runners.

I'm just trying to help by taking the initiative to help bring things back to being sensible (again), and reduce conflicts on the trail. Designating it "MTB trail" does not exclude runners. A sign indicating direction will discourage but not stop riding (or running) contra-flow.

What putting some signs up *will* do is help set expectations and reduce arguments.

Seems people have failed to notice that Dreggsy has already put up signs, but people have ripped them down. I'm now the bad boy control freak for proposing much the same thing, only more robust?

Interesting!

Postscript:
None of the runners encountered last weekend had any idea that the trail is a mtb trail.

My 2 cents .... I think it should be off limits to runners as it was built by a MTber for bikes and in the particular area there are over numerous other running only trails that mtbikes are banned from so it's not like they the runners aren't spoilt with choice in the local area ... Runners have way to many walking , running only trails
And yes the trail is pretty tight in spots so would be pretty easy to take a runner out if they were running at you or ahead of you on a blind corner as yes most runners from what I have seen often run with music on so yes I am 100% behind pushing them off the trail onto many other routes they can take
As for signs I guess that would be the only way to make them aware it's a mtb specific trail , I would recommend one at either end stating it as a mtb specific trail
Now for you calling it one way I don't think that is needed as I know it was built to ride up but the builder himself has stated that he didn't mind which direction it is ridden and from what I have seen as I ride this trail at least once a week the riders coming down the trail pull over or get out of the way so there really isn't an issue there with it being one way .
I also ride the trail both ways and will continue too for as long as I see fit if there is a sign or not as just because a few people say it should be one way doesn't make it right the builder stated it can be ridden both ways so leave it at that
Ban the runners but keep it two way and learn to be a good enough rider to get out of the way or ride and listen at the same time so y.ou can hear people coming which happens in all trails on the northern beaches especially like every single trail you ride in red hill and other areas which are nearby and fine being 2 way !!!!!!!!
So yes the majority of trails in our area are 2 way and there doesn't seem to be any issues
Another thing is that the traffic on this trail has gone up as all you people go and shout about it online telling everyone where it is and how to get there what happened to locals doing there time and finding trails etc now it's just a free for all personally I would be pissed if one of my trails which yes I have built and try and keep secret was plastered all over the internet for everyone to ride wreck etc who wouldn't even know how to pick up a shovel or trim back some branches but that's another rant all together !!!!

Fair enough yet he stated previously in the topic about which direction to ride the trail that he didn't mind which way it is ridden I guess he changed his tune maybe due to the fact that you guys have made his trail so public on the internet and given directions to it etc that the traffic has become a hell of a lot more than ever before .
Hopefully I will happily wave to you hawk eye as I ride in the wrong direction on it on one of my loops
Happy riding