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Possum .. One Way rather than Give Way?
I'm hesitant to make any negative comments about the Possum trail because I know it's one man's hard labour but I rode it on the weekend and noticed all the No Entry signs when riding south.
The North section from the Aquatic Bridge running south is a great trail for practicing smooth cornering. When you get it right you can really flow through the corners with little to no pedaling. There are so few corners on the northern beaches and nothing that comes close to the number of linked corners on this trail (certainly not in my experience).
I'm pretty gutted that it's now listed as one way.
I appreciate that since day one it was always designed as a South-North (uphill) trail but Give Way might be a better option than One Way?
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Without wanting to reignite the heated debate that took place last time, I'd like to make the following observation.
Turns on descending trails are built and routed differently to turns on climbing trails. This is because the demands are different from a sustainable trail construction point of view.
Consequently, descending on climbing trails is going to blow them out fairly quickly, especially on and before the entry to turns where the flatter entry forces more aggressive braking because the reduced banking (if any) reduces the ability to carve the corner.
I'm already seeing evidence of this on Kevin Costner and noticed the trail surface getting chopped up in quite a few places as people brake hard coming into the corner from the uphill side.
Riding the trail only in the intended direction avoids all of this.
If they were meant to be descending turns, the entry lines would be quite different in these turns.
If any of you were wondering why you might have had impolite comments directed at you from the crew building over at Daisy Duke as you rode past them down the trail, this is why.
+1
Hawkeye
I'm afraid I have been guilty of riding Possums the wrong way. I apologise to those who have built it and maintain it. And those who I have offended. But I live in Belrose and at least twice a week I met friends at King st. or somewhere in between. Therefore I ride some tracks in reverse.
All the loops around the Dam have generally been ridden clockwise in the 21 years I've been riding there on mountain bikes. I probably had another 10 years of riding there on pre mtb home built bikes before that. And I've always given uphill traffic the right of way. Saying that often I'll do a couple laps and mix it up, do figure eights with my laps, do some sections in reverse. Especially everything on the Allambie side, as my friends live there, and I turn around there to go home.
Wear and tear of the trails over the years have been dramatic. Some sections have gone from dirt to solid bed rock. Curl Curl track has gone back to the walkers. The fire trails get graded every couple of years. The sharks on the single tracks are getting taller every year. My pedals and cranks are heavily scarred.
One thing I don't do is ride when it's wet. I'll let it go(riding) for weeks or even months.
Yet every Saturday and Sunday morning hundreds of riders pummel the trails, even if 100mm of rain fell during the week.
This has been the biggest contributor to the changing face of the trails.
I predict from April to july, when the rain comes, doesn't matter what direction you are riding Possums, it will be smashed.
Without the preparation and funding of say Gahnia, these trails will be very different.
Can people post a description of their rides in order through the various trail links they use for BB and the Dam.
Need to figure out long term how this will work with Council, NPWS, RMS and Crown Lands.
The original plan in discussions with Warringah Council and NPWS was if starting from Serrata.
Serrata then, up Daisy Duke to Gahnia. Extra link of Gahnia to Seaforth Oval. Across at lights to Dam. Dam golf course then either complete a lap of the Dam and back to this point or straight up new trail to new trails circling the Aquatic Centre. Across to where Possums was built to what is now possums but down it in the opposite direction, down on new trail near Daisy Duke to start of Serrata.
The crossing of Wakehurst Parkway to the carvings from the Dam was to be highly discouraged/fenced off due to road safety issues.
However the Aquatic Centre trails seem to have gone dead and the link up to the Aquatic Centre also never went ahead.
Given we now have Possums and the other tracks haven't yet happened what makes the most sense for connections?
One of the key reasons for riding Possums down is that it has corners. TBH on the weekend Id planned on doing a few up and backs as practice until I was called out by another rider.
I'd previously used it as a start and end point of a Manly Dam loop, and an Austrian Enduro/Serrata/Kanye loop.
I live in Beacon Hill so I'd been considering riding from Government road along the Pipeline to Possum and then onto any of the above.
In winter I often do pre-work rides down the Engravings track, cross the Parkway then do the Golf Course Sniggle back to the firetrail before crossing back to the Engravings track. Its a great morning ride because it's short, not overly technical (like the new BB trails) but IMPORTANTLY by being parked on the western side of the Parkway/Warringah Rd intersection I avoid the 6:30am+ Virgin Active to BBay rd traffic jam. I was planning on adding Possum to that morning ride.
I agree with Hawkeye.
Arne - I agree on the people riding trails when wet. Very frustrating. However if riding the trails the wrong direction also does damage you can understand people being frustrated with your version of damaging the trails?
amarkie - thanks for getting views rather than just continuing to do your own thing regardless. Hopefully you'll agree trail sustainability is more important than what is convenient for you - hopefully you can work out another route - albeit not as perfect for the good of the trails?
Hopefully you take this in the spirit of what's good for trail sustainability and not some type of crack.
Cheers,
It was built for one way, the signs say one way (even though they regularly get taken down)
So ride it one way.
If you don't, then expect people to heckle you
Perhaps we should be looking to fit in a second trail for descending.
It will be a challenge to fit it in, especially as we'll lose some real estate to the extra lane going in for the hospital, but there's obviously demand for it.
The eastern side of the Parkway could be considered, but it has issues with creek crossings that require bridges if we are to stay on the road reserve and avoid going into the Dam reserve illegally.
Where the pedestrian overbridge currently is, wakehurst parkway is untouched from there south so we wont lose any land. Extra lanes are added to the parkway from there north. They are also connecting Aquatic Drive to the southbound lane of parkway.
We do a ride that starts at Allambie Oval, ride up to Pipeline then cross at overpass do 'reverse' Possum, then Gahnia to Seaforth Oval cross at lights then Golf Course ST back up Possumn back over bridge and usual route down to oval. You can chuck in Serrata and Daisy Duke as well. Best ride at the Dam IMO, one we usually only do on screaming hot days or late arvo.
Have passed a total of 2 people on Possumn and always move over to give way. The braking bump issue is a non issue as track is not steep enough (unlike Daisy Duke).
Here's how I link them in one of my variations. Starting at Nth Balgowlah, do the top of the Dam, cross the Parkway, down the Austrian Enduro, do serrata, back up Daisy Duke, across the back of the houses and then do Gahnia. Then it's either home, or back up the firetrail to Possums, across the bridge and continue on a Dam outer lap.
I park on Bantry Bay Rd near the Austrian Club, ride down the fire trail, cross Wakehurst and do a lap of the Dam. Back across Wakehurst and up Possums / Kevin Costner. Back down the road and try to find Serrata, so far with no luck but I think I've worked it out for next time and then I'll come up Daisy Duke and head to Gahnia and then back to the car.
this way the trail will require less maintenance & will last longer for us all to enjoy.
Cheers
My Route;
(Used to Be) KK down, then out onto rd to Serrata, backup Daisy, then behind houses to Gahnia, then cross mid Wakhurst for dam loop, then backup up possums and KK and finish at Bridge carpark.
One question? where is Austrian Enduro? I know there is the down track right next to Daisy on the left but it is pretty gnarly and we have to walk the first bit most times.
Cheers.
I ride it both ways when I feel like it and always pull over when I see someone coming uphill when I am going down ....
as I live in Dee why and sometimes start from seaforth oval and head over that way via the pipe line ... Have never had an issues and mainly just ride the top part of the trail when I am going down hill ... I ride at strange times and have mainly seen a total or 4 or 5 people who all have been fine as I pulled off to the side and asked them how they are going etc
come to think of it everyone should ride up the trail except me cause I like to be different!!! !!
It would be way better if everyone stuck to the old short loop of the dam they used to do for so many years way less trail maintenance
Before the likes of Strava freaks time keeping, people are now unable to stop and say hi and let one pass them by, this really would not have been a problem pre STRAVA. Take a look at RED hill for example. It is far from a XC track, so not quiet as many Strava XC nuts getting around.
Tracks run's both ways no one cares.
Stop making excuses get off your bikes say hi relax
It's on the way to Gahnia (at end of Grattan Crescent when you go thru gate) about 50m down there is a single track on the right (exactly where first jump is).
It comes out at Forestville park footy oval. Be sure to ride around oval to preserve footy field.
Hope you can understand my directions.
Cheers
Why not wrap a jumper around your tyres to prevent any scuffing. For that matter get all the footy players to stop using studs....the damage they do.
LOL
When you turn up to help at the next trail maintenance session we can explain it to you.
Tagging in possums and BB into extended extended dam loop = bottom of possums, up penrose, left onto grass then right down trail on crest of hill (called "Maad DH line on strava"), serrata loop, DD, Gahnia, Squirel (if i didn't do it after wakehurst crossing), bottom of possums (again), top of possum, bridge, creek jump, pipline, etc. etc. Obvious variations is Ghania before serrata.
I must admit I do agree with the original comments that the top half of possums is a great sinle, flowy, descent and there is certainly a desire by many to have something like that in the area. It requires great skill and correct line choice to get the flow right (not unlike Serrata and Gahnia) however the risks are far less severe for both person and machine. Obviously, I am guilty of riding the descent but appreciate and respect Hawks wisdom on the subject. I live in Brisbane now so promise not to do it again
start at the school, cross wakehurst pkwy, ride up possums to the scout hall, ride ghania, ride up possums to yarramman then ride serrata, ride Kevin Costner, cross the bridge, do the singletrack to the pipeline, ride manly dam back to the hydro lab.
it's not that fucking hard to work out.
or lets ride the dam backwards i dont see any signs saying not to
@ hawkeye
I think you are confused. My concern is for the oval.
OK.
This might be a matter of persepective between how it was built and the longer term plan discussed at meetings with rider representatives from various clubs, shops and forums and local and state government before possums etc was built.
A key point of discussion was fencing off the crossing point at Wakehurst Parkway between the Manly Dam firetrail and the BB carvings. This crossing point is a road safety concern and can not be promoted by either land manager on a map joining the two trail networks. The cost of another bridge was to expensive and not practical and an underpass does not work in this location.
With this crossing point blocked off the intention was the two areas linked in a figure 8 with the golf course part of Manly Dam ridden twice and crossings at the Seaforth lights (Gahnia extended on Manly Council land to the oval) and near the aquatic centre with an extension up from the Dam.
If this crossing point was blocked off so Warringah Council and NPWS can promote the network what are peoples thoughts on how to link up the two areas? With Possums in its current direction it seems like you would end up doing more road (down bantry bay road) and firetrail (along the parkway on BB side) riding rather than the Dam golf course single track twice?
Another option discussed to get from the Dam was a link from IMBA's heart break hill climbing trail alternative single track extended to the new Aquatic Centre single track loops after the new descending single track to the creek instead of the fire trail.
Yeah, I remember those discussions. The crossing at the current trail entrance on the Parkway was a major concern.
If that vision is still feasible and we need to swap direction, then some of the lines and corners on KC and Possum need to be adjusted to keep it sustainable - open out the entry from the uphill side, grade reversal to reduce the need for braking, and berm them.
Attempting to retrofit that on the current trail might bugger it up.
A separate descending trail would be better and I think there would be enough demand to support it. Fitting it in to the remaining available room might be a challenge.
And we'd need a new link up from the end of the trig track to the Aquatic Centre.
This crossing point is a road safety concern and can not be promoted by either land manager on a map joining the two trail networks.
we have been crossing that road for 20 plus years without incident, i dont see a problem.
are we becoming a frigen nanny state?
We already are, mate. So we need to work within what govt will and won't do.
Too much of a time waster trying to change their minds, I'd rather direct my limited time and energy getting stuck into getting more trail in*.
So if we need to arrange a descending link, and get in an uphill link from the Trig Track extension, my thoughts are more trail is good, yeah?
*where it's appropriate
Firstly thanks Simon for all your hard work and perseverance in supporting the mtb cause. Thanks also to the Possum/KK architect - it is simply awesome.
I understand the powers that be might not be able to advocate the parkway crossing but a fence will be a complete waste of money. The golf course crossing is proof people will just ride around it. There are already many other entries to the Bantry Bay fire trail and they'll just increase. To build a fence all the way to Kirkwood St will be very costly and hinder emergency access.
IMO we convince the authorities the only safe solution is a bridge. Realistically that won't happen for many many years but hopefully that will tick the relevant boxes for the authorities. In reality for the time being everyone just keeps crossing where we always have.
A second, downward "flowy" trail next to Possums/KK is a great idea. I'm sure we can make it work from a space perspective even if it's a bit straight in some parts. Possums/KK is proof the expertise exists. If we add plenty of labour via volunteer days I'm sure we could get it done quickly and most people will be happy to take orders from the agreed appointed architect?
Part B would be a trail from Heartbreak Hill or even the trig trail up to the pipeline/aquatic bridge.
Perhaps the above would also show the authorities less people would cross the parkway if we had a "dual carriageway" on both the eastern and western sides of the parkway.
There'll be challenges to this and better solutions but I think we can achieve something and avoid the waste of a fence.
Part B would be a trail from Heartbreak Hill or even the trig trail up to the pipeline/aquatic bridge.
Perhaps the above would also show the authorities less people would cross the parkway if we had a "dual carriageway" on both the eastern and western sides of the parkway.
This is something i was intending to do, but it's dense in parts
I ride the dam and Possums a couple of times a week, if you are getting a working group together to help build or modify the trails, put me on the list.
Sorry about the late reply, I understand perfectly, thanks heaps!
arrrrgh. I just don't get it.
a fence to protect us from ourselves.....
I get a fence around the rock carvings & protecting valued assets in the area from vandalism
but why should anyone be concerned about people crossing a busy road. Why should anyone have to take on the duty of care, for peeps unable to have the sense to cross a road safely?
Ohh yea.
For me its real easy to do a great extended lap without having to do the possum the wrong way around.
I love the possum Its a highlight of any extended lap around manly dam.
Thanks heaps
Its the reality of the legal environment we all live in and the context for the discussion over the last few years with NPWS and Council.
There is a lot on and off line of talk of connections at the moment and I think its best to put time and effort into solutions that have a long term future. This crossing point doesn't without a bridge which is expensive and may not be utilised.
Rider numbers will keep going up. Long term crossing at this point with poor site lines, 80km/h, bikes darting across the road scaring drivers will be a much bigger perceived or even a real issue than it is now. Government, local and State are already worried about it.
Bantry Bay and Manly Dam would benefit from official signage that show how to link it up. It currently requires detailed local knowledge which isn't evident for many people currently using it. Riders are already coming to this part of Sydney from 40 different Councils. Part of the reason why I thought it might be good for people to post how they link it up.
Not every question I ask is just to help me.
My lap starts at the pipe at Beacon Hill, Down to Allambie rd, cross to the fire ride onto the single trail behind the Nursing homes that leads to the dam fire road. Follow the dam trail all the way to the golf course, cross the parkway to seaforth oval. Start the single track at the oval and follow to the fire road. Enter possums and out at the start of Kev. Road it to Austian Enduro, Down to serrata then up Daisy Dukes. Go behind the houses to Garnia, up Garnia then do full possums over the road bridge onto Aquatic, over the creek gap, then follow the pipe home.
Its a good question Simon.
As I live in Frenchs Forest and only took up MTB in October and the only route I knew of before I started was Manly Dam. It has taken many hours of scouring Google earth and these Forums to learn routes and even names (still not sure where Kevin Costner is), where a simple sign at certain entry points could provide valuable information to newbies or people who ride the area infrequently.
My route of the area starts from home, down BB Rd across Wakehurst onto the Dam track for a full loop exit the same way up into Possums then back home for a quick 20km ride..most enjoyable.
Love the single trails so would encourage more for the area.
Dam first half,cross Parkway and up Possums and KC.
road down to Grattan
Gahnia then repeat Possums etc to Austrian Enduro/Serrata/Daisy Duke. Sometimes just one or other
top of possums/KC to overbridge, Pipeline or back to Parkway crossing for 2nd half of the Dam.
Pretty sure the trail runners will be going the wrong way in their race on Sunday (and banning us from our own trail at the same time).
...hiding behind couch now...
I'am of the believe that Possums can be ridden both ways.
I feel it's just not a fast enough track to create that much damage to the corners.
The only real problem are the strava wankers trying to belt out quick laps.
It's a great track slow down and enjoy it.
Haven't ridden it downhill in a while but always gave way to uphillers.
My ride normally consists of : down rangers retreat and either down what i call "shute you pants" (walk it if i am by myself or ride it if there is someone to pick up the pieces) or over to Austrian enduro to ferret oval, Seratta and back up Daisy across to Gahnia and then maybe engraving track to seaforth oval and back . Possum and KK .
For an extra ride i'll chuck in a lap of the dam. Usually play frogger to get across the parkway.
I think if the new track that runs on the Eastern side of the Parkway from the pipeline
to the creek would be better if it went all the way to the top gate of the dam. That way you get all the fast downhill section.
Also on my wish list would be a track that runs from the end of Daisy to behind the Austrian club to join the bluff track.
if you want a down hill track get out a build your own, i am always amazed how many riders complain about tracks and how few get out a do some thing about it.
if every rider took 1 hour a new down hill track would be down in days.
i build tracks/maintain tracks and it's as much fun as riding them you should try it. amine up for a up down funky up possum?
The effort needs to be coordinated.
We can't have a random Tom Dick and Oliver cutting in new trails wherever they feel like it.
We've already got one Dick who has cut in a dreadfully built trail from the Parkway on the eastern side into the Dam reserve to join up with a walking trail, and this needs to be shut down *immediately* as the shit is going to hit the fan very soon.
The rest of the "new" trails have not been cut in randomly, they have been very carefully routed and built to ensure that land managers are not put offside, with a view to having them formally adopt them in the medium term as part of a strategic network.
I can't say any more on how that has been achieved, but if you want to help, the best thing to do is to tag onto an existing work party. It will also be a great opportunity to learn abut the craft of sustainable trail construction.
Radio silence resumed.
so where are the work parties that created the possum/ausrian endure/daisy duke and what are they working next?
So some trail builders are more equal than others? Ooookay...
Some trail builders are well informed and informally in touch with land managers, understand how to apply the IMBA guidebook, know where to build, and more importantly, where NOT to build.
Others are clueless, and will likely cause offense (possibly serious offense) to the land managers we need to keep on side, with poorly built trails on bad alignments into sensitive areas, and that could set cooperation back years.
Again.
It's taken years to get to this point. Do you really want to earn WC's animosity again after all the hard work to get them (mostly) cooperating? A repeat of the NPWS lockout 6 years ago?
Some people have short memories.
7 years not six
I mountain biked hard out from 2005 to 2008 and since then have spent more hours each year on advocacy than riding.
Going back to the 2008 situation 7 years ago would be rediculously depressing.
It is time now to up the lobbying. I'm putting together what will hopefully be my last big push in this space!
-Demand, as it has over the last 20 years, is increasing faster than the rate of official trail construction.
-The scale of a required official network is more than government can afford to build but already mostly exists unofficially.
-The unofficial network largely meets the needs of riders in the know but is a massive barrier to non-local use and new riders
-is a management nightmare with some other user groups
-maintenance is problematic
-has cultural and environmental issues that BB has not resolved
What I dont really understand is that I have put up my hand now several times to do trail maintenance but wherever I am doing it, I dont hear back from anyone. I emailed twice, sent pms on here but nothing. I also dont see any official trail maintenance days on here where I'd be able to join. I understand people are busy but if people are keen to help, and I do believe lots are, there has to be a way of letting them. Not anyone is as keen as myself and begs to help a hundred times. Why cant we have trail maintenance days once a month, or once every two months, go out on the trails together, chat with riders, clean up, these things. People in general and mountain bikers specifically want to help but they need to get a chance to do so.
I've asked one of the guys to get in touch. He may be travelling at the moment, so it may not be straight away.
Thanks guys, much appreciated. Sorry for my frustration, the post somehow catched me out on the wrong foot. Must have something to do with the lack of riding due to the weather. Too much energy and nothing of it got burned this weekend. Once again thanks for all the effort many of you guys are putting into this.