You are hereForums / Archives / Tentative Planning (MTB) / Trail Closure Protest Ride
Trail Closure Protest Ride
Love you idea here http://nobmob.com/node/5082#comment-15726 Alex.
So here's what I'm thinking.
They clearly don't want us on the bush trails, lets show them what happens when we have to ride on the road.
Lets say we were to all descend on the National Park at the end of Bobbin Head Rd for a gentle cruise down the road to the marina area and then a cruisy climb back out on the road. They don't stop and charge road riders for park entry so I'm sure they won't charge us. Imagine the kaos this would create with a couple of hundred guys and girls on mountain bikes slowly riding up and down that hill.
We could ride under the banner of "Don't like us using the roads, then let us use the bush"
This could be a once a month event like Critical Mass, changing locations every month to another popular park / picnic area.
Of course it would have to be done on a Sunday to maximise our exposure to the general public.
What say the silent majority?
- Login to post comments
- Bookmark & share
Numbers will be our friend... media awareness too.
How about using organised rides like the, Syd-Gong or spring cycle thing as a medium to spread the word and make a statement that will be seen by thousands.
Craig
We need to increase our visibility to them if we are off in the bush they dont see us so a big turn out would be the best outcome. Let them know who we are and how many of us are not happy.
While I don't really agree with this kind of thing...
If you were out in Bobbin head no-one would see, least of all the upper level of this organisation. What good would that do? NPWS is part of the DECC and their head office is listed as 59-61 Goulburn Street, Sydney.
If one wanted to draw attention to their cause one would be more likely do a better job showing up outside that office in numbers. Say on a weekday morning in rush hour? Wouldn't you think?
users, safety issues with sharing trails and soil erosion as the main reasons for these track closures? The exceptions being Moon Rocks and Bantry Bay where the excuse has been areas of cultural significance.
Surely taking our plight to other park users and educating them about us is a good start. As for noone will see, I take it you haven't tried to drive to too many of the popular National Park picnic areas on a sunny Sunday.
I would expect that media coverage could be organised, maybe "someone" that works for one of the bigger networks could have a quiet word in the ear of their current affairs programs. Heck Anna Coren and Tracey Grimshaw are always begging people to text in about their grievances so they can help. The issue would in this instance atleast, appear to be a local one. Things in the royal appear to be heading in the right direction, we have continued use of sniggle on the oaks, more is becoming "legally" sanctioned out Flynny's neck of the woods, not sure if that is NP or State Forests. Remember also that it is meant to be POM based so I figure local protests, initially atleast would be the better way to go, bsides how many people do you think would be able to make a protest ride in town on a weekday morning. Is there not also value in showing the community links?
By all means, we should be bombarding anyone we can think of in authority with letters of complaint about this issue but a physical showing of our numbers has to be beneficial
who have the resources, lobbying experience and scientific data from Australia and around the world to influence Government decisions. For example they report that:
"Studies have demonstrated that on correctly designed narrow trails, mountain bike riding
has a comparable impact as hiking. The placement of a trail is more critical in controlling
erosion than the type of activity, even low impact trail use. Mountain bike riders tend to
remain on formed trails, as such, environmental impact is confined to the localized area of
the trails and less vegetation and wildlife tends to be disturbed when compared to hikers."
"In many cases user conflict has been a convenient excuse to exclude mountain bike riders.
However, it is widely reported that trail user conflict is rare, and in many cases, trail user interaction is a positive experience. Potential for trail user conflict can be minimised by a combination of user education, including a code of conduct and trail design. It should be
noted that many trails in North America and Europe are multi-use, have greater numbers of
users but have virtually no user conflict issues. Mountain bikers who feel that they have
some ‘ownership’ of the trail will allow effective peer group management of riders who rebel
against the accepted code."
See:
http://www.mtba.asn.au/cms/uploads/policies/mtba...
"studies have demonstrated that on correctly designed narrow trails, mountain bike riding
has a comparable impact as hiking. The placement of a trail is more critical in controlling
erosion than the type of activity, even low impact trail use. Mountain bike riders tend to
remain on formed trails, as such, environmental impact is confined to the localized area of
the trails and less vegetation and wildlife tends to be disturbed when compared to hikers."
We've been throwing studies like this at landmanagers for a while now.
There is Cresswell, Wilson and Seney, Cessford... the list goes on but for every study we produce, and no major study has ever found that MTB causes more erosion than walking the land managers in NSW pull out the flawed University of Wollongong paper, which was prepared by an honors student with limited resources, and chime in with NSW soil is different...
http://wiki.nswmtb.asn.au/index.php?title=Facts
Unfortunitely you wont change anything locally until there is a review of the Plan of Management. These are notorious for running late and it's the over riding policy we need to target in the mean time.
i think rallying everyone together, mtba, farken, bike shops, local clubs, the magazines, any media, put it on bloody facebook even like corey
post it up, plan it big time, and locate it somewhere that has to be seen, heard and not ignored!
I put this in the bantry bay sign tread, but seems more appropriate here:
Okay, so we went, we listened and we offered to work with the npws.
In spite of this they are acting incredibly insensitively and at a rapid pace with no apparent consultation with the vast movement of mountain bike riders.
There are sites that require preserving, and from what I have observed over a number of years is neglect of fencing and a lack of appropriate signage around these sensitive sites.
This kneejerk reaction by npws is going to displace many mountain bikers to other areas, and concentrate erosion issues rather than spread them evenly.
It is no doubt also going to result in many riders 'running the gauntlet' and risking confrontation, and potentially prosecution.
I find it so inapropriate to block out entire areas to *protect* small areas of cultural and historical significance (which I full support by the way).
Time to put our strength behind our voices.
I propose we start petitions, get some PR, perhaps a news channel involved.
We certainly need to lobby hard to get an injunction to halt this unconsultative one-sided process.
Whisperer
Sounds like a worthwhile thing to do. What is it exactly that we want?
I think it's best to go ridiculously big, like massive big, with huge notice. It's also good to have an enemy, nothing pulls people together better than a united enemy, that way we can hate something together and burn effigies. I have always wanted to burn an effigy!
just take me to your leader! someone tell me where to be at what time on what date and ill be there with bells on!!!!
There is a group of us that would be in. Time for action.
is in as well
we dont want to see this being expanded to our western areas
It should be noted that it was never legal to ride these trails in the first place so it's not like NP woke up yesterday and said "Lets ban MTB"
Unfortunitely NP have failed to manage MTB from the outset and as they are hopefully starting to find out, blanket bans are no substitute for proper management.
100 DOLLARS EQUALS A SIGN
5000 DOLLARS WOULD EQUATE TO ACTUALLY FIXING SOMETHING
you can see the easy out i spose
why not open the channels and ask for trail maintenance days on these tracks like the dam
im sure there would be volunteers to repair them as well
Kurt
seems like a high visibility protest area that would get my vote and my two wheels turning up , but what flynny said is very true they are just acting out their charter which is to protect the environment (ironic as that is amongst our aims too), what we need to focus on is a transparent cooperation between the management of these areas NPWS and the public who use them us being one group.
So cool heads no anger and smart lobbing .
If we piss them off we will get shut out and there is nought we can do about it , we need to come up with a plan of management of these areas that we can be included in , the alternative is rangers chasing us through the bush with fines and seizure of bikes we don't want that kind of confrontation , because a few signs is not going to keep us out.
dez
Ok so how about a rally...mid June.
We organise for all the MTB'ers through this, other sites and local bike shops to rally at a very public location on a Saturday morning. Perhaps even gather along Wakehurst Parkway or Mona Vale Rd.
We have banners and placards etc with Stu's slogan "Don't like us using the roads, then let us use the bush". "Fair go for MTB"
After our morning rally we can ride off on mass. (we could then ride to the Dam for BBQ or the park at Terrey Hills by the shops).
Location should be a park on a main road or intersection between Manly and Mona Vale with BBQ's so we can make it a social event as well.
Peaceful rally to protest with lots of exposure and participation from the MTB community.
Invite the local Pollies, Manly Daily, LBS and so on..
Imagine hundreds of riders lining Wakehurst Parkway or Mona Vale Rd gathering public support.
Maybe I should post it up as an event and start planning?? Thoughts??
Craig
want to consider a Sat afternoon so those of us with kids doing Saturday sport (I have 4) can attend.
toatally agree on saturday afternoon
Sure.....whatever the consensus on times and location. Thats what the forum here is good for
Thanks for the input..
IMO Sunday would be an even better day to stage a people power protest and any coverage we get in the media would have a bigger audience.
I think a 'Critical Mass' type action does more harm than good. Critical Mass get a hard time by the media and talkback radio. They get some media exposure, but the wrong kind that hardly rallies supports for their aims.
I like the idea of a kind of protest, but one that does not interfere with the general public, motorists etc.
Perhaps a protest in the Garigal Park somewhere and invite the local media (Manly Daily etc). Gather sympathy for our plight, not angst against us by causing disruption to others.
i think just being noticed is the point, pissing people off wont help, after all the idea is to rally about how pissed off we are
thats not to say it cant be massive and disruptive to npws regular schelduled watching of wheel of fortune and teeth removal time!
exactly are you planning to protest about?
The fact that we are being locked out of illegal single track trails?
Christine its about a fair go....
There has been no argument about not riding illegal single track and this group does its best to promote staying away from illegal tracks...
I believe it is the aim, to work with Govt and NPWS, to come up with workable solutions to the problems and to allow MTB and other groups (Like equestrian) to continue to use our wonderful open space with consideration and effective management of any sensitive areas.
The annoyance is the lack of consultancy and thought into a blanket closure. Its a very large community to suddenly close the door on.
Craig
The tracks are only illegal because that is the policy of the NPWS. Protest to change the policy and open up some single tracks to MTBs.
How is closing illegal single tracks a blanket closure? In what way has the door been closed? All LEGAL trails are still open to mountain biking. THERE HAVE BEEN NO CLOSURES OF TRAILS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY AUTHORISED.
If you step outside the view of the mountain biker, and look at it from the perspective of the ordinary person, a protest will simply look like a load of whingy riders complaining because their single track trails that they created illegally are now closed. You won't get any public support especially because all the other LEGAL trails are still open. The difference when they wanted to close horse trails was that they were closing ones that were AUTHORISED. That's why the horse protest was successful.
an unsigned illegal trail is in fact a legal trail isnt it
until you are warned off it or made aware that it is in fact an illegal trail ??
I was using the term 'public rally' to specifically avoid the term protest.
There seems some conjecture as to the NP boundaries and the real objective of NPWS. We welcome the protection of sensitive sites and I am sure would even assist in any work efforts.
Invitations have been given for them to take part and communicate on this forum. Only Manly Dam have taken up the offer to communicate to a large audience through a coordinated medium.
Fair points you make, though.
Craig
It doesn’t matter wether its illegal or not its about access to trails that have been ridden in the past legal or not. Yeah there illegal and some of them have always been and some not but just because its the law doesn’t mean its right or fair. With what is happening right now to those trails all avenues need to be pursued sending letters meeting the rangers protesting and ignoring the stupid signs are all legitimate.
Christine makes a fair point on how a non mtber might see all of this, but Daz is correct.
We have been riding these trails for too long and are too large a genuine user group to simply be shut out.
We could all probably learn from what happened in and around Vancouver on the infamous North Shore trails. Go to NSMB.com, do a search on "trail access" or "Ernie Christ". Interesting stuff, and the mtbers won too btw.
http://dev.nsmb.com/search/search_results?cx=001...
"an unsigned illegal trail is in fact a legal trail isnt it
until you are warned off it or made aware that it is in fact an illegal trail ??"
It's a bit like saying me setting up camp in you lounge room while you are out is only trespassing if you have a no trespassing notice on your front door.
Your reasoning is very flawed
The policy clearly states that bikes are not permitted to be ridden on "walking trails"(defined by DECC as single track in accordance with the walking groups) "unless specifically provided for in the parks PoM"
if said trails arent on NPWS controlled land
only the fun police can stop you
where do all the other "grey area mtb locations fit into this
has anyone checked if they have been signed off
I do think that illegal is something we need to consider whether or not it has been 'allowed' or 'overlooked' in the past. If we ignore the law it will certainly work against us big time.
Clearly now that MTB is HUGE some policing is now taking place.
But we do want to work with the authorities to ensure we have a voice in the planning and policy process and ensure that shared access continues.
I really cant see any value in openly flaunting the law in this forum and would have to discourage it. If you are happy putting your name against it on a public forum thats up to you I suppose.
It's a public forum and you are entitle to your view, but remember who reads this.
Ignorance is no excuse for the law either.
Craig
Exactly. and working together to get the policy changed in the first instance is where the effort needs to be directed. Not at throwing tantrums and threatening to sue people.
Write letters people. Word is NPWS may be doing an internal review of it's cycling policy. As it is an internal review we have no official input but can certainly write in to head office and make our opinions noticed.
Keep it civil. Include workable solutions and compromises.
There are a bunch of sample submissions here http://wiki.nswmtb.asn.au/index.php?title=Sample... to use as a guideline if you want ideas. If we get as many letters sent as as we've had angry posts it may just make a real difference.
however im not flaunting the law
all im saying is
if there is a grey area that is not sign posted or not policed and you ride it you are not breaking the law wilfully
if you know that it is an illegal trail that is sign posted and policed you are breaking the law wilfully
its an "if a tree falls in the forest" question
and im happy to put my name to any post i put up here
Kurt is my real name and i do care about the sport that i have chosen to spend a lot of hard earned on
Before we, a MTB collective, engage in any protest (public or not) perhaps we should agree to what it is we want out of process. There are so many contradictions in the threads regarding the NWPS and trails that at face value, we seem to be our own worst enemy.
Simply saying "We want more MTB trails" is probably a little broad. A detailed approach to where they will/should be located; who will build/maintain; how will the trails comply with local/international standards from both a Parks and an IMBA perspective would be a start.
The issue of signage is a simple example. Some say that the trails we have/haven't been riding weren't signposted therefore they were never illegal. Others say that signs on trails are meaningless and that ppl will ignore them anyway...
Personally I don't like every trail to be signposted as I feel like I'm going down an aisle in Ikea (love the store though) but if it performs the simply duty of informing users where to go or where not to go then it does add value in the bigger picture.
I think we need to ascertain what/when/how the NPWS/other governing body is going to do mid to long term. This is one of those times where due process needs to unfold. And if it does not produce a satisfactory outcome, it enables a platform for reform.
If I remember correctly, if you have more than 8 riders, you will need to get written permission from the NPWS.
on the park and the activity. Group sizes are buried in the individual park PoMs.