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VPP, Four Bar Suspensions and the Horst Link, Single Pivot,FSR System!!
Can anyone please give me some advice (non-sales pitches just good honest opinions) on dual suspension linkage types!
As some of you know I am after a new bike when my Mongoose Sells. See: http://nobmob.com/node/6440 but cant decide on the which bike to get?
VPP, Four Bar Suspensions and the Horst Link, Single Pivot,FSR System!! I’m sure they all work fine but have different advantages and disadvantages, including different maintenance intervals. (bearing changes and strip & clean intervals)
I really want a Specialized Enduro SL 2008 (Priced WELL) or a Santa Cruz Nomad built to my liking (Priced HIGH)! But as you’d expect each dealer is going to sell his or her product and bag out the other! The Specialized dealer seems to be partial where the Santa Cruz dealer isn’t. (He said specialized FSR is manure) That really drove me mad!! I’d really like to name him but I’m not into advertising!! I think that’s one of the reasons I listen to non-commercial radio!
So if I could some advice and thoughts from you Nob’s I don’t have to BREAK any BEAKS at the cycle shops!!
Thanks, have a SUPER day on and off the TRAIL!
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a Specialized SX Trail which has FSR and it is awesome. Coupled with a DHX 5 rear shock I get almost no bob and is plush as. Check out any review on the SX and they are all glowing. My mate has just ordered the 09.
The Giant Maestro system works a treat as well.
I did a heap of research on 165 - 170mm travel bikes - which is what the Nomad falls into - and found that the 3 bikes that kept getting all the raves were the Nomad (expensive but V light - air shock) the SX Trail (pretty expensive and more burly - coil shock) and the Reign X1 (good value this year at least). All are great performers according to reviews. I also have an 06 Reign 1(not X) and it is great also. Never ridden a Nomad. I notice the 09 Nomad is now 160mm rear. The Reign X0 would be the equivalent of the Nomad I imagine.
Depends on the type of riding you will be doing. Looking at your Mongoose you like a bit of gnarly stuff so not sure if an Enduro would be the go. My mate who is getting the SX trail just sold his as he never felt confident on it on jumps and found it a bit flexy. Once again depends on what trails you're riding. The Enduro pedalled unbelievably though. It would be great for the Dam or Stromlo for example.
If weight is a factor here are the approx:
Reign X0 14.5 kg
SX Trail 16.5 kg
Nomad sub 14 kg
Anyway that has been my experience, hope it helps.
Yeah
I like the SX Trail, looks good, and is 1.5-2kgs lighter then my goose.
MMM my mind is just spinning! I may also just keep my Goose and purchase a more XC style bike. That way when I’m ready to enter some races (beginner social races) I have a chance!!
Yeah I love to launch off drops, staircases and anything else my imagination tells me too! I’m sure most bikes can handle the drops its all depending on how you land!
Well thanks for your input.
I should point out that my mate I mentioned also rides a Demo 8 and is a total maniac. I reckon the bike is everything when it comes to confidence on gnarly stuff.
I have an XC bike for the enduros, etc as well.
setting aside the arguments on which bike to buy, most people will recommend their own bike
As most people will attest the more moving parts you have the more you have to service or the more moving parts that could go wrong. I have a FSR suspension and once I lost a pivot bolt in in, the set (as i could not get one bolt from mitre 10) cost me $120 to and since I am not that great on servicing it cost a few bob to install. I am also sick of getting stuff serviced and yes I really should service it myself.
But I have had my bike for a few years now and if your ride it 3-4hrs a week chances are you will have to service everything or eventually replace everything in that time, alternatively you could just upgrade the bike with the money spent on servicing and spare parts.
But that is just a cost vs time scenairo, its all a personal choice or brand loyalty?? or image???
Come along to a ride as I'm sure most people will let you take their's out for a few minutes
I think it's wrong for a retailer to insult a product that they do not sell. In the price point and type that most of us shop in, there are no bad suspension designs. Only personal preferences.
So, on to my opinions...I'll stick to design on this and not comment on quality of product or final presentation.
1. Single pivot. The simplest type and thus tough and long lasting. It's all about the pivot placement and is best executed by Santa Cruz and Cannondale. Brands such as Commencal, GT and Mongoose also use single pivot design with a linkage driven shock. Arguably best using a direct drive shock using a low ratio. Rides and climbs well and sucks up hits happily yet the suspension must ramp up at the end of the shock stroke (hence the linkage models) due to the design and will stiffen under rear brake.(brake jack)
2.Four Bar FSR type. FSR means Future Shock Rear and is simply a Specialized acronym-a brand. The design must feature the Horst Link.(Google this there is tons of literature) That is the link below and forward of the rear axle. It only appears on Specialized and brands they have licenced it to and brands that do not appear in the USA. An excellent design that is fully active and doesn't suffer from brake jack when set up correctly. Usually features a constant falling rate so it feels nice and plush all the way through the stroke. Pedals well and benefits from a platform type shock.
3.VPP. This design is unique to the VPP bikes of Santa Cruz and Intense and mustn't be confused with other dual link designs, and I'll explain why later.
It is an isolated triangle design-that's the swingarm-and it's isolated by the two links, one upper and one lower and they rotate in opposite directions and at different speeds through the shock stroke. Chain tension plays a vital part. The rear wheel is actually rotating around an instant centre ( this is found by tracing intersecting lines through the links) which starts within the front triangle and moves forward in an S shape. This doesn't mean the wheel path is an S shape. What it doeas mean is that the feel is rather firm in the early part of the stroke, then massive bump absorption giving that bottomless feel then slows down again to prevent bottom out. This why this design feels so plush and a platform type shock is not essential.
4.Maestro, DW Link and Marin Quad Link. These bikes are in the same basic group because they also feature the isolated swingarm design. The massive difference is that the links rotate in the same direction as each other. For those of you who have wondered about the legal argument between Dave Weagle and Giant... The Maestro Instant Centre starts and finishes in a different place and moves differently. Enough so to satisfy patent law.
The characteristic is that it is almost opposite to the VPP in that it reacts quickly to bump force, then slows down(but remains rather linear or flat) then speeds up again. Marin claim that their design causes the wheel to move up and back at the same time. In any case all types pedal well because the IC is on the chain force line (in the middle ring) and with the Maestro bikes the high ratio shocks and short links mean that a platform isn't strictly necessary.
5. Four Bar Link non FSR. The type that is seen on Kona, Scott and and others with the link above the rear axle. With this design it's all about clever pivot placement. It's an active design which sucks up the terrain yet will benefit from a platform shock and will suffer from brake jack and when using an air shock will noticeably ramp up at the end of stroke giving the impression of not utilising full travel. This design is therefore losing popularity.
In modern bikes bearings last for ages. Everyone should be checking their bikes pivots regulary to keep them tight. Really, pivots and bearings or bushings are pretty tough and nothing to worry about. I've never had a bearing service on any of my bikes. I have one single pivot bike that uses a big fat nylon bushing and it's in good nick too.
Don't sweat it out at a shop. Find a bike you like then buy it. Any mid to high end bike will make you happy. Have as much suspension as you feel like pedaling around.
If you do fork out for a Nomad, well you'll love it. I've never heard any Nomad owner say 'Oh dear, I really dislike my Nomad, I must be rid of it...' It'll be all down to the build and this is where mistakes get made, and those can be fixed.
So just buy whatever is in your budget, save up for longer if you feel you need to increase your budget, and whatever bike takes your fancy. Don't get pressured.
Or just get yourself a wide selection of bikes.
Now there's a sterling idea...
Excellent write up, Pete. Here's my 2 psi.
Suspension Design
Agree - I tried the single pivot design from Commencal on long downhill stretches and they track amazingly when going down some long rocky chutes...armchair rides! Very popular on European trails - that's why you see them a lot in the Alps etc.
And I agree with Nicco from BA (a long-time Nicolai "Horst-link" fan) that the local (Sydney) "small rocks" trails demand a bit more flexible / compliant set up's a la FSR or Maestro / DW.
Maintenance
We have several generations of FSR's in the family incl. a 10 year old FSR passsed down to my son Benji (and he gives it heaps - ask Carlgroover )...no problem with the bearings at all.
Same for my S.O. - she inherited my old skool Enduro FSR (1999!)...linkage is as tight as new...
All I do is once every 4-5 rides I check all bolts, incl. the linkage bolts with a torque wrench (must have, $ 80 from AutoOne)...for peace of mind before you rail that next downhill section...
.
Rgds, Hans
____________________________________________
"I thought of that while riding my bike."
Albert Einstein, on the theory of relativity...
You can't lump all single pivots together, nor four bar, faux bar or VVPs. You can have good and crap versions of all of them
Slight differences in pivot placement will make big difference in wheel path.
I've always been a fan of well designed Horst links (If I can't have a Lawwill that is), that said I love the way my GT I drive rides (Even if it is a little more heavy on the maintenance) and for all intensive purposes it is a single pivot.
General rule of thumb, and t'is very general, I found good 4 bars like the horst link to be more forgiving and good single pivots to be more responsive but that is way to simplified and may well be rider imagination. VPP seem a bit dead for mine, nice on the race track but not so fun when you just want to pop of stuff and have fun.
Specialized FSR (Horst link) has stood the test of time however in saying that I've never really liked the Enduro
The Nomad has VVP but as far as I can see the wheel path is 4/5 of feck all different from that of a single pivot. the fancy "s" curves SC rave about are barely there. That said I like em, They ride very nice
Your best bet is to forget all the marketing guff made up by people with no knowledge of Physic or engineering and repeated by bad sales folk and test ride a few different type and see what you like.
These guys are right. The process of buying a new bike is distorted buy a) the marketing department of the bicycle manufacturer and b) the sales guys in the bike shop and c) your mates.
All these elements are essential because a) products need to be marketed to the mass population in order for those products to become known in the marketplace and b) bike shop sales staff are a crucial step in aquiring your new ride. As with anything requiring a human, some are better than others and c) your mates experiences on bikes you haven't ridden/owned is a great insight.
Sometime ago I was asked the following question."What if I part with three to four grand of my hard earned on a new mountain bike, and I just don't like it?" Well, that's a tough question.
Put simply, very simply, if a bike is popular, at it's price point and within it's type, then chances are you'll like it too. Going with the crowd isn't a bad thing especially when you have any doubts. Only go down the path of big money custom builds when you know what you like and are confident with your own choices and can find solutions to any mistakes.
I'm at the point where I'd avoid ever buying a complete bike, of any type. With mountain bikes, a Nomad is definitely a frame I'd like to buy, build and fine tune and learn all about.
Once again, if anyone ever buys a bike and they don't like it, and variables such as incorrect size are removed from the discussion, then the solution is almost always to customise. I rarely like oem set up. To customise is really make your bike your own and goes beyond attaching some nice bike jewellery.
A bike purchased at three to four grand should last five years. Perhaps not all parts. And perhaps a little less for those who are tough on their equipment. Good money up front means good product received.
A complete Nomad would be knocking on the door of seven thousand and would last the toughest of riders even longer.
So my answer? "No worries mate, I'll take it off your hands for fifteen hundred to two thousand!"
even about so much as getting the brand, linkage type, etc right.
More important is narrowing down the type of bike you need for your riding and the trails you ride.
I made this mistake, thought I was going to do a heap of DH so bought a Giant Glory - awesome bike but totally unsuitable for my needs.
With only one or 2 places to shuttle close by and no time for races it was an expensive waste of time. Sure I need a burly bike for Red Hill etc, but one that can be pedalled UP hills as well. Then again if I was only riding the Dam, the easier tracks at RH or Oxy Falls then I wouldn't need an SX Trail either. I'd just ride my Reign!
It's getting a little dated but it still a good read http://www.mundobiker.es/content/category/3/67/185/
Basic up shot is that unless it's a URT it will work fine, just not always how or why the marketeers claim
Hi Mate, I would pick three you like and try and get a ride on each.
I rode the Trek (4 bar type) and the Specialised (FSR), I eventually bought a Yeti (single pivot).
I would say that both the Trek and the Specialised were somehow better technically. The Trek just flattens out all the bumps and the travel feels endless but i found it super comfy to the point of bland. The FSR felt amazing to ride.. you could feel the technical aspect to it. My thought was "if I raced all the time, id buy this". The single pivot is a simpler suspension but for me made riding alot more fun.
So try em !!!