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NPWS Rider Limits


Rob's picture

By Rob - Posted on 15 April 2009

I've just had an email from NPWS regarding rider limits on organised rides in National Parks.

The attached form one was asked to sign lists (amongst others) the following fees:

  • Application Administration fee: $55.00 - Dependent upon application
  • Application fee: Dependent upon application
  • Per head fee: To be advised if applicable
  • Security Deposit and other fees: To be advised if applicable

As you can see, signing such a form leaves anyone open to at least a $55 liability and probably more as these fees are TBA and no limit is mentioned on the form.

You will also note from the below that a three week notice is required which is probably unworkable.

From this I think there is little option but to limit all rides to 20 or less and I'll be turning that on now. Sorry, but this is bureaucracy run wild and have told NPWS as much. Sad

Anyhow, here's the mail I received in full:

As discussed previously, see attached copy of our Activity Consent Application for Non-Commercial Activity.

This application must be used for any organised group of potentially 20 riders or over that wish to utilise legal trails in the National Park.

Access to the form should be restricted & with it available only to organisers of a ride & it should be lodged a minimum of 3 weeks prior to the ride (preferably longer).

The signed application can be either faxed or scanned & emailed to the fax number or email address listed on the form.

All information requested in the application from needs to be provided.

Initially, in most cases, I envisage no fee will apply as long as it is an application / notification of a proposed social ride with minimal potential impact or risk to other Park users, however, some conditions may be imposed, depending on the type of event, proposed numbers, location & the proposed date/time.

An administration fee and/or a security deposit (& potentially insurance indemnity) may be required depending on the extent & potential impact of the proposed activity, but any such requirements (if proposed) will be discussed with you or the organiser following receipt & assessment of the application.

The charging of fees and/or security deposits will be reviewed & discussed in light of how well the process works.

This process will be positive for both NPWS & NobMob as we will have a better awareness of park usage & in turn be able to provide information that may assist NobMob ride organisers & participants.

As I mentioned last time, following the positive outcomes from the recent mountain bike issue meeting at SNR, a discussion paper is being prepared to go to the Central Branch Management Meeting in May.

ar_junkie's picture

Would have been easier for them to just ban groups over 20 and police that...

Gotta love red tape!

Little-Ditty's picture

Way to go NPWS!! Sad Way to encourage people to get out there and enjoy our environment!! Sad This is so pathetic. This is such a sad attempt to stop everyone seeing, let alone using, this fantastic resource that all Australians are entitled to.

Alysum's picture

this is going to create a lot of controversy here... 3 weeks in advance is massive. What's the fine otherwise?
the end of NobMob 20+ rides? Sad

Tom

Damien's picture

So NPWS want us to let them know when there are 20 or more people turning up to a social ride and If I understand correctly there will now be a rider limit added to all rides to enforce this NPWS rule but not all rides are in a national park.

So what is easier filling in forms at least three weeks in advance and possible fees and other crap or just going underground and doing it privately and inviting trusted known mountain bikers for a private ride. Its not often I want to ride with that many guys and gals but I can definitely think of a few really enjoyable rides that have happened in the past with 20 plus people at short notice.

There is already enough rules and forms to fill in in this busy life I just want to go riding with a big bunch of mates with maybe a weeks notice ocasionally so can we have a trusted riders list with unknown members and NPWS blocked from seeing and policing the rides.

I really like the idea of the site being for mountain bikers to communicate and discus mountain bike related stuff and my mountain biking wouldn’t be what it is without this site. But honestly its a real shame that NPWS have any access at all to the information here they only use it to curb and police our sport.

Flynny's picture

Forest NSW has a similar policy in place for state forest usage.

Never seen either them or NPWS enforce this outside an official club/tour operator type events.
I think that's where rides organised on a site such as this blur the boundaries. If a ranger was to come across a group of 25-30 riders on the trail they are more than likely just going to point out that rider limits apply, ask you to ride carefully and send you on your way. But if the boss see it on a forum as an organised ride deliberately inviting more than 20 riders then they are going to ask questions of the site owners...

.

I can see where they are coming from. Activities need to be managed and big groups can have an impact on other users, I remember being stuck behind a very big group in a blue Mts canyon which ruined the trip for us but that is another story.

As for no positive action with legal single trail in parks around Sydney... Both Blue Mt and Wollemi NP have legal single trail. Np have run guided MTB tours out at Kanangra Boyd NP...

Things are happening but the wheels of bureaucracy turn so slow as to be rusty...

christine's picture

when, like in the past, we have had one ride go along perimeter and long track and another one do duck and centre and then add perimeter and long onto their ride and they all run into each other and there you go! bam a big group that wasn't pre-organised?
I don't understand their thinking, with such an increase in the sports popularity and all the hoo ha about obesity why would they not take the action to work with riders? total Madness
I doubt you would let us Rob but a 'sealed section' for regulars would be great about now!!! lol - and no rude comments you lot about sealed sections!

Damien's picture

So who are the 20 riders going to the scott 24hr or the Angry Doctor and Dirtworks etc.

These events have rider limits of more than 20 and usually always have more than 20 sign up.

ar_junkie's picture

I'm pretty certain events and the likes will be exempt from this limit.
Eye-wink

As flynny noted, NPWS is progressing, albeit at slower rate than most of us would like, but this is new territory for them too...
Rather they get it right now, so in 15 years time there are parks etc still around for others to enjoy.

Damien's picture

Will need fixing as I tried to post WSMTB club round 4 and was asked to put a rider limit of 20 so didnt post it.

Flynny's picture

as these events apply for a special purpose permit... Just like what NP are proposing to Rob above only clubs, tour organisers and event promoters get slugged the admin and per person fee, which is built into your entry fee, where as fees are usually waived for social groups.

There is no absolute rider limit, just a requirement for groups of over 20 to apply for permission.

Damien's picture

It would be nice to be able to post a race meet on here and leave the rider limit empty as it is nice to see who is signed up. For example there are 46 heading to Dirtworks if I tried to post that ride now I would have to specify 20 or less for the meet.

Rob's picture

Ahhh... very good point Damien. OK, so I remove that limitation and put a note that the onus is on the organiser to limit to 20 when riding in NPWS land.

antc's picture

This application must be used for any organised group of potentially 20 riders or over that wish to utilise legal trails in the National Park.
At least you don't need one for illegal trails Eye-wink

Access to the form should be restricted & with it available only to organisers of a ride & it should be lodged a minimum of 3 weeks prior to the ride (preferably longer).
I can't believe that a government organisation can have a policy that is not easily found online and no access to an application online to comply with a policy!

Initially, in most cases, I envisage no fee will apply as long as it is an application / notification of a proposed social ride with minimal potential impact or risk to other Park users, however, some conditions may be imposed, depending on the type of event, proposed numbers, location & the proposed date/time.
Clear as mud, a line in the sand!

An administration fee and/or a security deposit (& potentially insurance indemnity) may be required depending on the extent & potential impact of the proposed activity, but any such requirements (if proposed) will be discussed with you or the organiser following receipt & assessment of the application.
Ditto!

The charging of fees and/or security deposits will be reviewed & discussed in light of how well the process works.
What Process, discussed with who?

I appreciate the need for controlling access to large groups into National Parks but I can't understand why it seems to be shrouded in secrecy. I know there is an online form for groups of > 20 for the basin. Does anyone know where the public can view the policy and download the application?

Nobmob seems to be quite proactive in self limiting the maximum riders for a ride to a perceived manageable number. I enjoyed my first ride with the mob "Remember When" the other night, what a shame if this has to be limited in the future.

Carlgroover's picture

At 47 years old and have only seen the NPWS makes things worse for MTBing I guess I'm shit out of luck in seeing a substantial improvement in access, by the time it happens I'll need a walking frame.
John.

PIVOT MACH 5's picture

John, see if PIVOT will make a snazzy dual suspension single speed zimmer frame for you! Smiling

Morgan's picture

I can see it now - Duke of Edinburgh groups, Scouts, fishing groups, the extended family going on a camping holiday, NPA walking groups.

All those forms flying to and fro from NPWS. Good thing they're so well staffed and cashed up to the hilt isn't it?!

Serious question though Rob-is it just us lucky nature loving 2 wheeled freaks copping this shit?

Lenny_GTA's picture

Not us being singled out, it applies to everyone.

pikey's picture

NoBMoB is not organised.

This site as clearly documented in its by-laws is a place where a person states, I am riding on a certain day at a certain time, join me if you want. (we are not a club)

The well intended ride attendee tally list on the site has now proven to be the undoing of the social and spontaneous nature of the site!

I put a motion forward that if 19+ strangers decide to join me on a ride then theres not a thing I can do about it and therefore not breaking any rules of the NPWS. (how many times have riders gathering at a trail head teamed up to ride together? is somebody supposed to then say "hey we are now an organised group over 20 riders, quick call NPWS and sent them $55 and fill out a form?" I think not!)

Pikey

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The Rules are Evil and must be re-written Sticking out tongue
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craigs's picture

We have a process specifically for Nobmob????

I am interested in the fees and forms applicable to other groups, walkers, horses, other MTB and how that will be reviewed and fees applied in future if fees are deemed applicable to Nobmob rides.

Can we set up an auto email that sends in a completed form every week starting now so a standing Saturday ride can continue (with less than 20)

I have a comment to make but in light of it being not very positive I will not post it.

Rob's picture
Can we set up an auto email that sends in a completed form every week starting now so a standing Saturday ride can continue (with less than 20)

Sure... set up a $55 (and the ability to add more when required) weekly direct debit to them to pay for it.

Clearly not a very good idea. Be sure I am continuing negotiations with NPWS and will let you know the outcome.

craigs's picture

Why is it not a good idea if this is now the process that we are to follow Rob? Please explain? I think you are just being antagonistic Smiling because you will note the line in the NPWS response.... "Initially, in most cases, I envisage no fee will apply.....".
It's actually quite clever and saves much administration on our part.

So you are now suggesting we dont follow the process offered and wait for more info? That is not a good idea at all in the current climate I wouldnt think but your call! Do keep us posted and let us know also if this is the same process and fee structure for all groups in the same boat.
Thanks

I think clearly you missed the point of sarcasm Rob.

Rob's picture

Erm... anyone that signs a piece of paper saying they will pay $55 and another other fees, without knowing what those fees are or may be calculated at and expects it to never cost them a cent is quiet frankly stupid.

It is for this reason I'll never use this form or process. Just let it lie. I am speaking with NPWS about this and will get back to you all.

marhleet's picture

geocaching is not allowed to place a small container for locating in NPWS areas, anymore.
existing caches are allowed to remain.
because we 'might' 'organise' an orienteering weekend of 'hundreds' which would impact the trees and other users.

the three caches along Narrow Neck which I found 2 weeks ago, had not been touched for 19months.
but the covering their ass routine that is necessary can be seen as over the top.

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