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Manly Dam
I had a chat with the Manly Dam rangers today.
Apparently on Monday NPWS were out inspecting the track (for the right reasons) to see how a managed trail works.
However they were very concerned that while the trail was closed, sign posted and on the web site. Over 100 inconsiderate people were seen riding it.
With the great breakthroughs that the MTB community have had in the last two weeks due to the dedication of a select few (thanks Rob and Co). This is really not on.
Damage has been done to the trail, but more importantly to the cause.
End rant.
Andrew
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If its any consolation,i have noticed there were far less than the week before, however still a long way to go, especially considering the sheer volumes of riders now using the dam.
I think alot of it is to do with recreational riders that aren't educated properly about the whole mtbing thing.
As dedicated mtbers we all know the efforts being done to bring us dedicated places to ride like Manly Dam, and as such we observe what needs to be done to maintain this and are aware of regular email updates etc.
However if you're just heading out on a whim for a lark you're not aware of any of this. yeah you might see the signs but your here now so you just push on regardless, unaware of what damage you might be doing or negative impact you may have.
To be honest most of the people I see riding the Dam when it's wet seem to fall into the beginner/clueless ( no offence) category.
And those who I see riding the Dam when it's wet but aren't beginners look like clueless kooks ( offence intended
) anyway.
.... you sure seem to spend a lot of time hanging around the dam in the wet observing moronic riders. Pehaps you can get a licence to fine, or at least do a short course on setting up trip wires and limpet mines
Sorry, not a mtb stalker! You spend a bit of time there when it's your backyard.
...hiding in the bushes with camouflage and streaks accross your face, looking something like a raving lunatic Rambo who jumps out screaming at errant riders. Keep up the good work
Sharpshooting and espionage are my other pasttimes besides mtb, but I only indulge in them when it's been raining funnily enough.
It's probably true that more education is needed.
IMHO they need at least 2 large notice boards (and several more smaller ones) with details of what is required for maintenance and explanations of how riding in the wet is bad so people don't do it.
In the same vain as the walking across a football field analogy:
If you play footy every weekend and it rains and the fields are closed as a result, you know the game's cancelled you don't go play on them.
However if you don't play football, but you just want to kick a ball around your with your mates, you don't know this and arrive to an empty footy field, most probably thinking yeehaa there's no one else here.
It seems to me that the object of "closing" Manly Dam is simply to reduce the amount of MTB traffic. 100 riders on a Long Weekend Holiday, several days since the last good rainfall, after more than 2 weeks of the track being closed, seems a pretty reduced number to me
There is NO CHANCE of ever achieving zero traffic.
Reduced traffic during wet conditions, on those parts susceptible to erosion (ie those sections which are watercourses or have standing water on soil) is always going to be a better result for the track.
Possibly, future track maintenance could eliminate the watercourses and standing water. Then we could keep on riding no matter what the weather.
I, for one, really enjoy riding in the rain
Do we know how many closed signs go up and can they could simply put more signs up if there isn't enough there already
Just a thought
Lorrie
I see this as another part of the argument for more trails really.
Manly dam is the only place to ride on northern beaches. tihs trail should be a dry weather trail only, the only way this will ever happen is to have access to other trails in the area that are weatherproof (drains installed etc) this way it gives those riders that like to ride in the rain a place to ride.
(I am one of those riders that enjoys riding in wet conditions but i would never try and ride the dam if it was wet)
"I, for one, really enjoy riding in the rain
"
You should have been at the Mt. York trip, you would have had the time of your life! LOL
John.
Perhaps one or more gates that could be locked shut to restrict access are the solution.
Their placement would need to be carefully selected to stop some idiot building a new track around them.
I'll be straight with you here: I've ridden the Dam in the wet many, many times - the great majority of those being when the Dam track wasn't officially closed for whatever reason.
But I've also ridden the track when it has been closed, and on some of those occasions I've noted to myself that the track was in better shape than it was on most of the (rainy) times when it was open.
I know it is uncharitable but I've always had the impression that the closure signs going up is a somewhat random occurrence.
Disclosure: I haven't ridden the Dam during this current extended wet weather period closure because it is likely to be way too muddy and, although I like rain, I don't really like mud.
Cambo do you participate in access negotiations or maintenance? If so you probably understand how riding it when it is closed puts a hell of a lot of pressure on keeping them open in the first place.
Grover: I also love to ride in the rain but Mt York is a different kettle of fish. For one up here on top of the hill things drain a lot better and 2 It's never going to need to cope with the numbers you get at the dam. Greater numbers and less drainable, more boggy soil base =
No I don't participate in these highly commendable actions.
But over the past 15 years I have been involved in negotiations of a similar nature in several different contexts so I do appreciate the pressure that people seen riding on a closed track might cause for some of those people doing the negotiations.
I'm not advocating riding on tracks which are clearly posted "closed".
I am saying that the closures of Manly Dam appear random to me, since in my personal experience it has been open on many occasions when it is raining, muddy and with streaming water coursing down the tracks, and it has been closed on other occasions with just a few puddles across the top (which are always there if it rains - an easy target if you want to improve the track), the rest of the track dry and no rain for several days.
To be provocative, I'll just add that I think there is an argument for opening the Dam track even if the track is still a bit wet on the Long Weekend (for the weekend only) because people are going to ride on their long weekend, especially after 2 weeks of no riding due to closed tracks: patience runs thin after a while and Tomorrow we are heading into the third week of closed Dam.
Perhaps you could remember there are more trails than just manly dam an if you must ride in the rain, maybe use a fucking fire trail!
or they could just ride elsewhere as Manly Dam isnt the only place to ride in sydney! What you are not realising is that if they open Manly Dam after it has been raining for the masses to ride over the long weekend, it won't be long before the track is a right off and it will be unrideable in the dry as well as the wet.
Thanks for that eloquent response
P.S. I think perhaps the Manly Dam track between Wakehurst Parkway and Allambie Heights (you know, the 6 metre wide bulldozed and then rolled smooth one) is a fire trail.
Don't the rangers ever give out tickets? I think this might be the best and only way to stop people from riding when it's closed. What good does it do to close a trail when they don't enforce it? It'd be like having a speed limit for cars but never giving out tickets if people speed. What do you think people are going to do? Ya, speed. Except of course for the rational safe smart considerate people.
If they gave out fines, then they could get some income to maybe set aside to not only pay the rangers but maybe help support maintaining the trail?! Win win if you ask me.
Also, any idea when it's going to open as I haven't been able to ride in weeks and I'm itching really bad to get out there...and I guess if they don't give out tickets then there is nothing really stopping me but my own conscious to not ride so the trail doesn't get closed...
Cmon y'all, this is valid arguments for both sides. Efforts should be on advocating for more trails around the Oxford Falls region.
Look if you choose to ride the Dam when its closed and wet, know you do so by ruining it for others.
I will admit, I've ridden it when you need a snorkel but no signs were around showing it closed.
I've seen seasoned riders ignore the toll gate bar at the start of the single trail, despite seeing others respect the signs and turning back. Its up to fellow riders to inform them and their choices after that, is theirs.
Better signage is required at the start near the school and at the lab. Education is good as well as the threat of fines.
Rangers are about but I'm guessin for the long weekend, it was a rare day off for them. Riders ignoring the closures will get fined. But yes, closing the Dam on a perfect sunny long weekend is cruel as well.
At the end of the day, we need a better trail system so the Dam doesnt get hammered constantly and helping Rob with the POM is the next best thing we can do... this group was mentioned at Parliament. I dont care what anyone says, thats impressive!!
I agree with you Flubb.
I don't think the "fines" concept is effective as I have heard experienced riders at the toll gates discuss the fine and decide to take their chances anyway.
The issue is mostly an education one and signs saying "closed due to wet conditions" won't deter people who don't worry about wet conditions - the signs should explain how not riding on extremely wet tracks helps erosion prevention and contributes to better track maintenance for all riders. They should also say the track will reopen 3 days after the rain stops (or whenever).
And if there were any alternative tracks then the sign could suggest riders go and ride there while the Dam is closed.
Then, back onto my fire trail note above, I also consider the road from the Manly Vale school carpark (the one which was bulldozed two years ago and then covered with crushed white stone to make it smoother for vehicles) around to North Balgowlah is a fire trail, and from there up to the Seaforth school it is a fire break (even has a fire hose) and public access road behind houses, as is much of the track from Allambie down behind houses to near the bottom of the Dam. I don't see how anyone could be fined for riding on those sections.
If the fines were high enough, it would for sure help stop riders. Say the sign says "Trail Closed Fine of $500 to anyone caught riding it". Even if they didn't always enforce it, I think a sign like that would keep many more people off the trail than "Trail Closed Due To Erosion Prevention". And just think all the money they could make to maintain and improve the trail! Last weekend times 100 riders is $50,000! Maybe even build a new trail...
That's the same argument the RTA uses for speeding and that State Governments use for crime prevention
It would have the same result if applied to MTBs and also I reckon you'll find it then becomes worthwhile going to court to argue that Rangers can't fine you for riding on a public access area.
Dont you get it if its wet dont ride on the bloody trails.
Just because you are capable of rationalizing and justifying your actions with an argument does not mean you are right. STAY OF THE BLOODY TRAILS WHEN THEY ARE WET FFS. IDIOTS.
So riders "in the know" continue to ignore the signs (when physically placed by rangers or the basic understanding that mid-heavy rain equals track damage to MD if ridden) and decide for themselves whether or not they are going to ride?
Thank you Damien for saying what should have been said ages ago, and what I have been busting to say since CamboWambo's first post.
Cambo, I don't believe we have ever had the pleasure of riding together so this may seem a little harsh. I'm also not in the habit of name calling, although I have been known to on the odd occasion in the past so i'm going to use an analogy, as they seem popular here.
If I walked out into my workshop and lifted the lid on the little metal box I would see lots of you. If thats a little too subtle for you then if I walked down Oxford Street I would pass a couple of "Sheds" that had you as the first name.
As Damien said, just because you can mount an argument for it doesn't mean its OK or worse, that you should be touting about it here.
Now I'm on the mailing list from the Council re Dam closures and to date I haven't received one that says it is open. Despite the fact that I suspect the Dam would be reasonably dry at the moment with the exception of a couple of puddles, the fact we haven't been notified otherwise says to me that the Dam is still closed. If you don't like it then maybe you could ring the rangers and ask them for yourself. That's proactive. It also stops you from getting there, riding up sections of firetrail to be greeted by a sign saying closed which then only places you in the situation of "I've come this far I may as well keep going because I like riding in the wet". It might also prompt the understaffed, overworked rangers to send out an email notifying everyone that the trail is open. It's just possible that since the ranger that was a mountain biker has been moved to a different position, the others there have simply been too busy or maybe just forgot to send out the email saying the Dam is back open for riding.
Of course, judging by your response to DangerSean I presume you only ride the firetrail sections when the Dam is closed or wet and miss all the single track completely.
Looking forward to meeting you at the next maintenance day where I'm sure you'll be jumping at the chance to restore some of the damage you have no doubt done.
Happy Trails.
a very frustrated Old Fart
I thought my post was eloquent too. You obviously liked it enough to want to quote the whole thing over in you next post.
Haven't ridden with you either, but I'm not as subtle as the old fart unfortunately, and from what I can tell you are one class act. What I lack in subtlety I make up for in sarcasm.
Prove me wrong cambo, smarten up and stay off closed wet usually high traffic trails until it is sensible to ride them again without causing damage to the trail we all love to ride so much.
Clear?
How much damage does riding in the wet do? I love a bit of mud bashing but I don't ride the dam after heavy rain. That being said it was barely dry for the 2nd half of last year and I seem to recall everyone here riding it.
Good comments on both sides however a couple of things will always previal:
- People ignoring the signs of a wet dam
- People who dont know the damage they are causing to the dam even when it is wet
- The people who work at the dam do the best they can, lets give them some credit
Furthermore
- What are some good ways in which we can help to let people know that the dam is closed?
- How can we educate those who dont know about the damage they can cause by riding in the wet
I think it all boils down to the idea is if you will cause more damage to the dam by riding on it then don't.
As the mountain biking community we have to set an example to the wider community, even more so if we are trying to get access to more trails. The example needs to be set here in this forum, what happens if someone looks at Mike Bairds speech and then sees this thread??
There are always other trails to ride when its wet and if you plan to ride a trial and are desperate to go for a ride be prepared to pull out if the trail is wet.
Why does this keep becoming such a big deal? It's not like there isn't a plentitude of riding trails within a relatively short distance of the dam.... so if the dam is shut just head up to Kuringai or some other N.P. Yet people keep riding a closed trail regardless. Is it a Sydney thing? Can't bear to have to travel any further than one possibly has to? I just don't get why anyone would keep doing it when you have so many other options so close by. Just drive the extra bloody 20 minutes or so and get over it.
It boils down to one simple line : Just do the right thing. How hard is that?
Colt.
Some good debate on here and clearly some of it heated! Lorrie made some great points:
My thoughts for what they're worth:-
When the Dam is closed, people need to know that it is. Sites like this are great but for the many riders who aren't on here, they need to be told by clear signage at the entry points at the Dam. The rangers are overworked so anything we can do to help would be useful.
Common sense by the riders - if it's been raining consistently, we all have a duty to stay off the Dam, whether it's closed or not. There seems to some who perhaps aren't using this at the moment. Hopefully, they are now more aware after following this thread...education is always key.
Thirdly, there will always be idiots who ignore the signs and ride anyway. I'm not sure there's much that can be done about people like this. However, as sites like this do more to advocate responsible awareness of trail access, hopefully those people will become an ever decreasing minority!
Well, there is, but vigiliantism is frowned upon by the law, apparently....
Letthemeatcake that is a really good question and not one I can answer with any scientific backing, so lets look at it from a practical point of view.
we ride trail "A" in the dry, at the end of the ride we've got a little bit grit and stuff in the drive train and probably a few other spots on the bike, you're primarily clean, unless you've had a stack of course. If its really dry there might be fine layer of dust over the bike. Now lets go back and ride the same trail "A" when it is wet. Think how much more dirt and crud is on your bike, then on you, big difference isn't there? That's all track that you have taken from where it should be. Now some will be rolling around in fits of laughter at that but lets look at the bigger picture. Much of what will have been on the bike will have been shaken off, same for whats on you. Let's assume maybe only a third of what hits you or the bike is still there at the end of the ride. So now you have taken or moved three times as much track. Hmm, still not alot in the overall scheme of things but how much gets flicked up and doesn't hit you or the bike? It's starting to accumulate now.
Soil, by its very nature, becomes "fluid" as it gets wet. This wet soil tends to be "moved" around alot more readily by a bike tyre than when the soil is dry. Hence ruts start to form, berms start to loose their shape etc. Ruts restrict the ability of a well built trail to drain properly, they tend to hold water, the soil becomes wetter, the problem becomes worse. As a one off rider, probably still no big deal for a well built trail but now lets multiply that by the 100 other riders out there on Monday. Hmm, its starting to build up isn't it.
Now we've got bigger puddles and ruts forming. Most people tend to ride around these, now the trail is getting wider. Even when the rest of the trail dries out, the puddles will remain, leaving a lasting legacy to be dealt with. The dried ruts leave edges or lips that will be more susceptible to "crumbling" as people ride over then. This reduces them to powder which when it rains next, takes up the water faster. See the cummulative effect?
That's just looking at it very basically and only at the physical aspects of the damage done.
Then we have to look at the damage this does to our "image". We have one area of legal single track on the northern beaches. Many people are working tirlessly to get us legal access to more trails, many of which we have ridden "unofficially" for some time until NPWS started to clamp down. There are a couple of simple rules, stated or otherwise re riding the dam. Don't ride it when it is closed is one of them, along with staying on the built trail. If we show no respect for these rather simple rules / requests then why on earth would anyone be willing to grant us access to other areas that they control? From a bikers point of view that shares the load on trails and is a good thing, from a land managers point of few all it does is open up other areas to possible abuse.
Common sense and restraint is all that is required.
Debaker, I would suggest the heat in this thread comes from the level of frustration that "this thread" comes up everytime we have extend periods of wet weather or there is work done at the dam to try and combat these issues, work that can unfortunately change the trail from what it is. That and the complete lack of respect that people that continue to ride a wet dam show not only to the rangers or those that are working at better trail access but also all those that have put in an effort to maintain that, or any other trail.
I totally understand the level of frustration. So question for Cambo et al, having seen all these replies, has this convinced you NOT to ride the Dam now when wet and/or closed??
looking on the councils website. If it's closed, it's closed.
http://www.warringah.nsw.gov.au/community/mounta...
Then if you chose to ride even if it's closed, don't complain when it's taken away from you.
Thanks for the question David: my answer is that generally speaking I don't ride the Dam or anywhere else that is clearly marked "closed".
If that upsets some people I'm sorry. Maybe those who think the closed signs should be obeyed unquestioningly shouldn't bother following up Mike Baird's good work in Parliament re the NPWS? And maybe if you think your way is the only way then you don't really need to participate in a forum "discussion" where you might hear other opinions?
I haven't said anything personal about anyone on this forum and I am disappointed that some of you have seen things otherwise. I do hope none of you are in this picture
Mate, nothing personal, but you're being a goose.
" generally speaking I don't ride the Dam or anywhere else that is clearly marked "closed".
Generally speaking? So you do ride it when it's closed then.
"I have occasionally ridden the Dam when it was marked closed - because I know that it shouldn't be closed at that time"
So yes, you do ride it when it's closed. Whether you think it should be or not, it is. You're not the ranger so live with it.
"I have ridden the (not closed) Dam in the rain many times and will continue to do so: I like riding in the rain".
That's good mate, want a medal or a chest to pin it on?
"If that upsets some people I'm sorry."
No you're not.
" Maybe those who think the closed signs should be obeyed unquestioningly shouldn't bother following up Mike Baird's good work in Parliament re the NPWS?"
What the hell does that even mean? Closing The Dam in the wet has nothing to do with NPWS blanket closures. Although people riding The Dam when it's closed are counter acting Mike Baird's good work by showing us in a bad light,so your just contradicting yourself.
"And maybe if you think your way is the only way then you don't really need to participate in a forum "discussion" where you might hear other opinions?"
If they close it, don't ride it. It's called trying to do the right thing. Sorry but your "opinion" is to do the wrong thing.
"I do hope none of you are in this picture"
I'm not.
So what you are saying is that you dont give a crap what efforts others are putting in to gain access to other trails?
You also dont give a crap if council close the dam because you clearly think you above anybody else and are going to ride the dam regardless? Tell me Cambo what makes you so special? Just because you know plenty of people who ride the dam when they clearly shouldn't doesn't that make it OK.. remember your mother saying 'if little Johnny jumped off a cliff would you do the same?'
Take responsibility for your actions. Otherwise you are potentially ruining it for the greater MTB community.
It is really simple the bottom line is if you are going to damage a trail with your bike in wet conditions you shouldnt be on that trail or track it doesnt matter whether it is Manly Dam or not it doesnt matter whether its legal and sign posted or not it dont matter if its been dry for a whole day and you havent ridden for three weeks if a trail is too wet and going to be damaged by your bike stay of it.
Now in the case of Manly Dam if the rangers have closed the trail and the signs are up to state its closed dont ride it.
Given that this pic was taken in '07, long before NWPS put up signs to close this particular trail, what is your point?
Having the knowledge/experience of MD (lack of drainage in number of parts, high traffic etc) and simply choosing to ignore both official warnings and plea's from most bike clubs/groups is quite remarkable.
Are you pro vigilantism then?
For the record, I am in the picture.
only just, junkie!!!
Bernd
There are more issues with wet weather riding than just increased erosion, track widening and trail creep (all shown to be real problems on wet trails in studies by people such as Marion and Wimpey, Wilson and Seney, Cessford at el....)
Things like Phytophthora cinnamomi are also far more likely to hitch a ride on mud caked tyres/frames then it is in a dry, dusty conditions.
This is a mould that causes root rot and dieback in plants and is a real threat to native species.
But, hey don't let the vast amount of evidence persuade you....
Do you want to be part of the problem, or part of the solution?
While we are all sharing our own opinions..
I think procedural controls are ineffective compared to engineering controls.
Install lockable gates in various key locations and lock them shut when it's closed.
Hierarchy of Control: http://www.awusa.asn.au/ohsHierarchControl.html
To bring this up a level out of the mud (lol
) there are perhaps, two issues.
1/ People riding when the track is marked closed
2/ Track being marked closed when track condition is good enough to be ridden.
There is no doubt that 6-8 bikes riding through mud can cause significant trail erosion - when it's dry, you can barely see that a bike has gone past, when it's wet there are inch deep grooves in the mud. Multiply to 100 riders, and you end up with mud-slides - i've seen it a large number of times over the years at manly, and without the hard work of trail maintenance and many users respecting the trail, there would be no manly trail right now IMHO.
Nobmob is never going to capture all of the recreational riders, however maybe if the site hadn't posted the closures, they would have seen 200 not 100.
Remember there are also a lot of locals who do see the dam as their back yard and don't neccessarily see the rules applying also.
OF, thanks for the reply. Your examples made really good sense. When I asked the question I hadn't really considered the sheer numbers and how the small effect of each rider contributes to the overall issue.
I'm still curious about opinions on the end of last year whan the dam was wet but everyone rode it anyway.
As for alternatives, my understanding is it's ok to ride Terry Hills in the wet as it's all fire trail. I appreciate some don't enjoy fire trail but it's better than nothing. Or you could do a bit of scumming
are you saying rode the dam in the wet last year when it was closed? Not me and not any of the boys I ride with... check your facts. We are responsible riders and we don't ride even fire trail sometimes if we think there has been too much rain...
Is there a list of trails that are wet weather safe?
Someone mentioned above that there are tracks that can be riden with in twenty minutes of the Dam, if the Dam is closed. Which ones are these?
If there isn't any, then no probs. But if there is, can we make a sticky thread that lists the wet weather safe tracks/trails please?
It would make it alot easier for newcomers to the sport to help do thier bit, and at the same time help to keep us wet riders happy.
As far as signage goes. I hate signs, but it sounds like a well thought out sign, that is short and to the point outling the shortfalls of riding said track in the wet. Possibly have a website address on the sign, pointing the person to this website if they want to find out more about riding on closed tracks and the effects.
I think penelties have thier place, but the more important thing is education. Having a couple of well thought out signs will greatly help to improve the thinking and mentality of people that ride the dam, both regular and irregular riders, those that drive a distance to get there and those that are fortunate enough to have the dam as a back yard.
I could go on forever but I'll leave it there.
Hi Christine,
Sorry, I think you've misunderstood me. I'm not talking about riding when closed. I'm talking about the overall conditions of the dam last year when it was pretty wet for 6 months but never closed. I thought it was ok to ride and it seemed like most on here agreed as there were plenty of rides organised.
LTEC