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Oxford Falls
I was out riding around Oxford Falls on the weekend and noticed that the fences blocking the cross country track had been cut down. Is this vandalism or is it something the Parks have done?
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This was asked here:
http://nobmob.com/node/9925
I mailed the NPWS rangers and asked them to comment but have had no reply.
Just call their office at Forestville and ask (please report back if you do). I believe the number is 02 9451 3479.
Spoke to the rangers and they confirm this was vandalism and are none too happy as you can imagine.
I'm actually not particularly impressed either as now when we meet with politicians and the like in the coming weeks will now have to fend of this topic when it comes up instead of being able to deal with the more positive points that we are there to discuss.
The rangers wanted me to point out that is this illegal vandalism and in the hands of the police. If anyone has any knowledge how this happened you are encouraged to contact NPWS or the police.
Action such as this wastes NPWS time and resources, preventing them from working on more worthwhile things (such as trips to Glenrock to see how well MTB is going there).
I'd suggest it was motorbikers. I have seen some of the state of these tracks and the damage is all from motorbike tracks. It's actually pretty bad. A motorbiker can carry a chainsaw a lot easier than a mountain biker. Good to know - still no riding then.
To be honest I thought putting up signs and fences in nice bushland was the work of vandals
I did point out that it was unfair of them to assume that this was the work of MTB riders and there were other users that may have done it.
The ranger's answer was that there were 'loads' of MTB tracks through the area.
So basically, they have no evidence this was MTB riders but are pointing the finger this way anyhow
How the hell NPWS ever expect us to treat them fairly when they don't treat MTBer's fairly is beyond me. To instantly assume it was MTB's that did this just cause there are tracks nearby is just arrogance of the highest order.
I for one am rapidly developing a dislike of rangers and their attitudes and it is all due to their continual MTB bashing. Do they not realise they are actually causing more problems for themselves than they are fixing by the holding the opinions they do towards us riders and the actions that come about as a result of that???
It just makes you want to go "Well F--- you all then". Obviously that is counter productive, and if it wasn't for the fact that I wish to continue to be law abiding who knows where that would lead? So it's not hard to extrapolate that scenario to incorporate those who don't care about being law-abiding and see the results it would have on their actions......
Colt
I was running at Oxford Falls on Sat and I saw 3 different pairs of dirt bike riders entering or coming from single track (Cross Country loop, Moon Rock track), so the vandalism of the signs is not necessarily mountain bike riders.
It would seem unlikely to be mountain bikers as we have less need than motor bikes to cut down a gate to get past it . Also as somebody said you can't carry a chainsaw on a bike . That would mean a cyclist would have to drive in a readily identifiable car to the gate , make a lot of noise with the saw, and then make his (or her) escape along the only road in . Its a pity we as a group seem to be characterised as vandals , at least by the local NPWS. We probably have to overcome this image before we make any progress on access.
And it has sweet FA to do with an image problem
By blaming a vocal group such as mountain bikers
They can then use this to further justify their draconian measures
And who is it that litters lookouts and trails with bright white tissues and stinking ciggy butts
Would it be walkers? Tourists?
Tissues, ciggy butts and discarded drink containers don't cause erosion though
I propose that we close all the National Parks and install surveillance cameras
This would solve 2 problems
It would make the job of the NPWS easier by not having to deal with annoying user groups
And the pictures could be streamed to our computers so we could enjoy the pristine wilderness from the comfort of our own homes
And the money we save in petrol, we could spend on junk food
And speaking of erosion, is the remote control airplane club on private property / public land / national park? Seems the clearing of the land for their oval / landing strip seems a pretty big intrusion on the natural landscape...
The Aero Club is not inside National Park. Not sure who owns that land, but it isn't NPWS.
False Premise (wikipedia)
Note particularly this "...an argument based on false premises can be much more difficult to refute, or even discuss..."
Rob, to me this appears to be a strategy by the NPWS to put you (Rob) on the defensive. I can't say whether it is a deliberate strategy or if the NPWS are idiots. But either way, you shouldn't fall for it.
This looks like you are going for their argument hook, line and sinker.
False Premise 1: do the NPWS have any evidence as to who did this?
False Premise 2: if you are speeding in your car, would the Police require the NRMA to make you slow you down?
False Premise 3: You and NoBMoB are not responsible for the independent actions of every bicyclist in Sydney.
This line of argument is simply a distraction to be avoided/ignored by you. Not related to your objective.
That makes a lot of sense Cambo. Whether it's true or they are simply just jumping the gun and attacking the nearest person, I don't know. But if they are using this as an avoidance tactic, it is very deceitful.
If it's brought up again, possibly those questions could be raised. If no factual answer could be given, their statements should be quashed.
I hate the politics of these sorts of things. I get so worked up, by peoples intentional deception, regardless of the subject.
The sole basis of our judicial system is innocent until proven guilty right? Well unless NPWS can prove without doubt that MtBikers are responcible, they should remove their statements. I know this would put noses out of joint and personally I think it's a little off and don't take any personal offense to it. But call them for defamation towards MtBikers. They've tarred us all with the same brush, labelling us vandals etc. I dunno, might be something in that too. It seems to get anywhere in these political senarios you have to play dirty like they do, to get anything done.
I was recently visiting a National Park in the Blue Mountains and saw that some idiots had been doing burnouts and donuts around the area where the NPWS visitor information buildings are, I've also seen first hand many rangers in the area with tax payer funded vechicles/tyres so I can only assume they are most likely the culprits, since adopting their rationale.
I really can't believe anyone could be dumb enough to to want to penalise/restrict a group as a whole due to a few rednecks.
That's like banning roads and drivers because some drive while drunk.
John.
@cambowambo: Yeah - I see your point. The trouble is with a negative campaign is that all someone who wants be negative has to do is bring up some untruth and there it is, in the minds of the people in a discussion. This untruth doesn't have to be proven, it just has to be hard to disprove. As you say - just by entering into a discussion or an argument about this the goal of the negative campaigner has been met.
I guess this very thread is an example of how that works.
Don't worry - if this happens when speaking on more serious matters than here (not that a forum isn't a worthy place to discuss - but there is no time limit or agenda to follow for example) there are ways to deal with it tactfully and move on.
the aero club was owned by the aboriginals.
While you are all going on about how hard done by the mtb riders are, give a seconds thought to the horse riders - we are legally allowed to ride those parts of Oxford falls but because mtb riders insist on riding closed trails the NWPS put fences up that we can't get around - yes, we are a diminishing sport but we are still around.
I saw at Red Hill on the entry there 'someone' has chained the gap where we used to walk or ride (either bike or horse) through and put a sign up saying trail bike riders are prohibited from the road - like they pay any attention.. aside from which they are allowed up there - they aren't allowed at Oxford Falls...
but in reality this is all an endless topic of posting - what happened to the fun nobmob which was NWPS-less
Blondie... are you trying to tell me that horses are allowed on walking trails in National Parks? I don't think so
"what happened to the fun nobmob which was NWPS-less"
LOL, You reckon NWPS is a fun-nazi. You should try modifying a car these days. Damn Polititians!!! haha
Like back in the days when i would post a ride and no one would turn up to annoy me but now geez its half full , i think i will stop posting so i can keep my record of the least amount of friends on nobmob !!!
Done the car thing with my ute! but yes, I am saying horses can go where walkers can go..oxford falla cross country course is legal for us as well as other trails some of which are on the nwps flyer
@Blondie: Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but I have the latest Garigal National Park flyer here (well - it's as dished out by the rangers at last week's LCNP meeting so you would assume there is no later one - it's dated June 2007).
The legend shows the following categories of track:
In the Oxford Falls area there are no horse trails. In that area there are two management trails (where mountain bikes are allowed), those being Five Mile Creek and Slippery Dip/Morgan Road fire trails. Note that nursery rhymes, power lines, DH runs, moon rock and a small part of the XC loop are all outside of National Park boundary.
Out of interest - this flyer consists of 12 panels printed double sided (ie. 24 in total):
And you think reading about this topic is no fun - try receiving phone calls and emails on the subject from NPWS.
Don't worry - when they give riders fair access we can stop talking about it
Because on the flyer I have it says that part of sandy trail as in the duffys end is not for mtb but rather for horses and walkers. However I am not overly interested in fighting on behalf of horse riders here as we have our own groups. Either way NobMob I thought was more about mtb riding than what the nwps do or do not think.
@Blondie again
We have been forced into doing all this advocacy work. It's not through choice - believe me!
And yeah, there are horse friendly trails marked on the South side of Terrey Hills/Duffys Forest, but as I said - the legend states that anywhere a horse can go, a bike can go too.
But what about horses that ride bikes?
It's not so long ago that the NPWS was shooting horses in National Parks.
From helicopters!
The horses were hit with one inaccurate shot, and left in misery and the helicopter moved on.
The NPWS was roundly criticised from all quarters regarding this exercise, and I think there was a govt inquiry.
This is the same organisation with whom we are trying to negotiate access for a low impact activity, like riding bicycles in a national park?
Maybe it's time to go above their heads, and lobby the various ministers directly.
1. Nathan Rees (Former Water Minister) promised before the election to open up MTB access to catchment areas. What came of that?
2. There's the new NSW tourism campaign based around adventure tourism. Wonder if the NSW tourism minister even knows how restrictive the rules are on mountain biking in the parks. Maybe he or she should talk to the authorities in Rotorua?
3. The various health, community services and sports ministers need to know about this too. They talk the talk about obesity, graffiti, car hoons, youth crime, etc, but their own laws severely curtail a wholesome and fulfilling outdoor sport like MTB.
No wonder we are bringing up a generation of cheezel eating xbox junkies with no immune system...
I think you will find that they have started doing this. At Bantry Bay the sign now says no walkers as well. I wonder whether we can fine the rangers if they are in there? Or is it their private domain? Do they allow the aboriginies access as their descendants painted the pictures or are they barred too?
"There's not a word about what one can or cannot do on a bike or horse (aside from "Mountain bikes are not perimitted on walking trails." in one of the general bullet points)."
Interesting - since it is so specific to mountain bikes, we should all rock up on BMX or Cyclocross bikes... Just to make a point!
And if it went to court you'd probably get away with that too Herzog!
Rob, I'm sorry but I've been thinking again.
What set me off was riding Red Hill last week and watching motorcycles gouge tracks ahead of me and then seeing two others dragging their motos under the gate which has the sign "no motorcycles" at the main trail entrance. Then following a motorcycle gouged trail (bicycles don't have tyres that wide and can't dig long tracks going uphill) around Manly Dam on Sunday morning. Plus my previous observation of motorcycles at Oxford Falls last time I was there.
Motorcycles do most of the trail damage that I have seen. They actually enjoy gouging deep ruts and throwing rooster tails of dirt and rock everywhere. And they do it on purpose - that's why they have motorcycles - to ride around blasting their throttles in the bush!
Here's my suggestion: next time NPWS complains about trail damage/illegal riding/whatever you should simply state "obviously that was motorcycles" and move on to the next subject.
They will of course want to stick with their script for quite a while, but if you keep sticking to yours, then eventually they will either have to prove their point, accept yours, or more likely just move on.
Hopefully that gets you out of the loop they have you in at the moment.
are to blame for just about all the erosion issues NPWS blame on us, i spend a lot of time at red hill, Garigal np and oxford falls and the only places that are not eroded like crazy are where moto's cant get to or there are simply to many other trail users for them to ride there.
They seem to stay away from oxy(and did you notice how eroded that is? not at all, but everything else gets hammered and we get the blame.
I have mates that ride motos, but if they continue to ride in the wet and disregard damage issues when they try to get up dry single trails especially at red hill they should be banned, and we should help authorities with this(number plates, descriptions etc)
IMO, moto's are to blame for access restrictions of late in the Garigal NP
I went for a lazy ride along Morgan Rd fire trail this morning and saw this at the entry to the XC track near the RC club driveway.
No more posts and wire, now its boulders and trees!
Also looks like there's to be a new gate or chain across the Morgan ride fire trail just after the aero club driveway.
There was quite a lot of traffic on the firetrail this morning too. I sat admiring the view for about half an hour and at least a dozen cars went back and forth.
There were two RC planes flying at the time.
Looking at the condition of the firetrail there has been a lot of traffic along it recently.
cheers
Loki
you have done a great job of closing down a great trail to walkers, mtbers and motos
IMO the boulders and so on are an ugly and cheap fix to a simple problem and in the process you have ruined the local riding spot for hundreds of riders!
Mountain bikers have been using these trails for years and probably close to 100 mtbers a week use it.
In all my years of riding there i have only seen maybe a handful or so walkers. Now when you compare that to mountain bike usage, we far outweigh the park usage. I thought NPWS where trying to increase visitation, not in the northern beaches, you are trying to kick out one of the major users if not the biggest user.
Motor bikes are the only problem, so why don’t you embrace mountain bikers, let the mountain bike community maintain the trail and dob in the motos that are illegally riding in NPs.
Because so many of us use the trail, we would be like police if need be, taking down descriptions and details of all people not respecting the trail rules.
Work with us not against us. We(mountain bikers) are not here to ruin the bush, we are here to enjoy in a sustainable way like everyone else.
mountain bikers, walkers and NPWS we all want the same thing sustainable enjoyment of OUR land.
Blocking of trails in our area to all users or just mountain biking alone is unjust because the issues are caused by neither walkers or mountain bikers.
Having said that, i agree that allowing access to mountain bikers or walkers without community trail maintenance programs will not work. Let us help you.
@nrthrnben nice stuff, but you are preaching to the converted here... if you feel strongly about this please write to your MP and the minister for the environment.
And don't forget that Aug 18 there is a public planning meeting in LCNP (OK - so it's not Garigal but close enough to home to count): http://nobmob.com/node/9946
"Motor bikes are the only problem, so why don’t you embrace mountain bikers, let the mountain bike community maintain the trail and dob in the motos that are illegally riding in NPs.
Because so many of us use the trail, we would be like police if need be, taking down descriptions and details of all people not respecting the trail rules. "
While I fully support the idea of working together the whole dobb in an evil doer doesn't sit well. It was one of the tactics they pushed with the original RNP trial and only served to divide the community.
Lets face it when the old bidddy down the road starts whinging about MTBs and dobbing you in does that do anything to help the situation or does it just make you more determined to ruin her day?
Education, proper trail construction and respect should be the basis of any trail system not dobbing in others.
Lets help with planning and promotion and education of legal trail systems and leave the policing and rules enforcement to the land managers
I agree flynny, and by showing forward planning and doing things the way they are use to i.e. bureaucratically, we're showing we're serious for sustainability.
Sorry, this is a little off-topic due to the trail already been closed again before we could address the matter.
The more I've been travelling to other locations the more I've been witnessing how far the northern beaches area is behind the ball. We have our own independent issues we need to face first however I still feel a simple step in the right direction is appropriate signage. Signage for trail condition status, signage for safety, signage for education, etc. I've been thinking about ninjaing some signs around Manly Dam explaining about the issues of widening trails just to get around a puddle for example. The rangers don't want signs but it's a low cost answer to blunt education on the trail especially for new riders and other trail users.
Here ya go: here's a draft:
to the comment:
"the whole dobb in an evil doer doesn't sit well"
What was being referred to was motorbikes being driven illegally and irresponsibly in Garigal NP and giving us a bad name.
When and if they open it back up and we spend hundreds of man hours building and maintaining sustainable trails,im sure everyone with any sense would with out a doubt make sure that any motor bikers found ruining our groomed trails would be reported to the relevant authorities.
If policing is left up to NPWS the result is the quick fix boulders, fences or signs seen in the post above^
Red hill single trails are also regularly destroyed by motos
Once again i have nothing against moto riders in general. I do have a major problem with our local trails at oxy(Garigal) being closed down because of them. Mainly caused by them coming up them in the wet, leaving massive foot deep trenches behind. It was only a matter of time that the closed them.
In regards to:
“Education, proper trail construction and respect should be the basis of any trail system not dobbing in others”
Agree 100% with education and respect, but you are missing the point, I was talking about us making sure motos don’t ruin our access to trails in the future (which sadly at oxy has already happened)
This is a big problem at red hill at the sport and rec end. So much time is spent maintaining the single trail up there, only to have motos ruin it in the wet by riding up it. This to me, does not sit well.
Thanks mate, very true, will be sending some respectful letters soon along the above lines.
True a lot on here are in the know, but as NPWS read this i wanted to show them the real cause of the problem.
Also it seems that a lot of people on here haven’t seen the motos every weekend ripping up the trails at Garigal, they need to know for when they write letters as you suggested.
"And don't forget that Aug 18 there is a public planning meeting in LCNP (OK - so it's not Garigal but close enough to home to count): http://nobmob.com/node/9946"
Just a thought, maybe we could have a special section on the main page under "urgent trail advocacy" as i think everyone should be at this meeting, might also post on rotorburn if nobody has already?
Very important, like you say, if we show the high need for mountain biking in LCNP, we can request the same meeting in our area. or is it already in the pipeline?