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MENAI (LUCAS HEIGHTS) is officially OFF LIMITS to MTB's
The nanny state strikes again!
Please note that Menai (Lucas Heights) is now officially off limits to MTB's. Today (Sunday 3 July 2011) I drove down to ride there at 7:30 in the morning to find signs had been erected at all points of entry (see images of signs). MTB's, Moto's and 4WD's are banned and presumably walkers too although the signs don't specifically say so for walkers, you will likely be trespassing if you do walk. There is a $1,000 fine and the Feds are patrolling. They turned up and warned all the other riders who had turned up for their Sunday ride that they will fine if you enter. I saw a 4WD Fed mobile drive into the fire trail so they are on the watch.
I'm glad I managed to ride Menai a few weeks ago for the first and last time it seems. Another area of recreation for the MTB community is eliminated.
Winco.
[Mod. moved to Sydney South]
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if it was not for the motos buzzing around & chewing things up they would have had no idea there was MTB in there!
... to be honest. I would think this has less to do with nanny state than ANSTO reactor security, especially if Federal Police are involved in enforcement. Jihadists...
The "No Trespassing" signs will include unauthorised entry of any kind, including walkers.
A shame, nonetheless. I heard there were some pretty good tracks in there.
Has anyone been over to the DH side? Is this also off limits? A real pity if everything has been closed off.
Damn MTB Terrorists
Who know's how much C4 you could pack in a frame!
Hawkeye, I think it will have more to do with public liability risk management (hence my nanny state reference) rather than security. ANSTO is away from this bush area, totally separated by a main road. If it was for security reasons then surely you would not be able to drive into ANSTO to the visitors centre or do a U-turn on the ANSTO side to park the car across the road by the bush area. The Feds are involved enforcing this ban likely because it is Commonwealth land.
Isildur - yes i'd say the DH area would be included in this ban sorry to say.
I hate to say it, but closure of unauthorised areas like this was precisely what I was talking about in the post: Unauthorised trail construction can only end badly.
While the involvement of Feds. here says to me that this is more to do with National Security (eg. the toy town reactor there) than a council or state authority getting annoyed with people enjoying themselves. Or maybe that was just the best excuse they could come up with at short notice?
The point here is, if I were a local I'd be onto the land manager responsible for other areas in Southern Sydney in a flash - to try and get some sort of access agreement sorted up front. I'm sure the NoBMoB community would be happy to get behind any such campaign if someone wants to organise one? Be warned though: it's a long and hard slog, but got to be better than another announcement like this coming!
Such a shame. The trails through Menai are some of the best maintained and exhilarating rides in Sydney! Kudos to the gents who looked after the downhill with such dedication!
Federal Police stoping mtb in general?,surely its not up on there priority list,its a security thing,probs becuase of Japan,the world Govs are realising how it can potentially stuff the world.
however if its due to erosion, like always the greenies may be involved and the motos are largely to blame
I'm gutted, I loved that place it was my closest ride and so much fun
Those signs were up weeks ago. Shame they're actually cracking down on it though
"Those signs were up weeks ago. Shame they're actually cracking down on it though" (lincolnsydney)
Nice one. Thanks lincolnsydney for letting everyone know...now! If you had bothered to post this earlier it would have saved me a 92km round trip and a wasted Sunday morning not to mention all the other riders travelling from far and wide who experienced the same...
From memory the DH area was bordering on ALC land, not sure on boundaries.
Do we have any real estate agents who can access RPData to check boundaries and land ownership?
Has anyone contacted TBMS and Sutherland Shore MTB Club to see if any discussions have been initiated for the DH and other trails?
There was talk between club members and the Council down there in 2009 about the site, not sure what the outcome was.
Each time Manly Dam has blown up lately the noise and publicity has meant we have ended up better off.
When riding was banned our emails and phone calls shut down a Council for a week. The result was the updating of a PoM (soon to be on exhibition) that gave us recognition as a significant user group, notice from the wider community and an immediate turn around on Council's decision.
The BBQ Patio incident has resulted in NobMobbers and Manly Warringah Club now meeting with Council and Contractor to give rider input into reducing trail widening, trail flow and over at Wakehurst returning the trail to the more technical line and single track width.
The closure of trails in NPWS land helped riders across the state to lobby State Government. This has led to the NPWS Discussion Paper from which State Strategy and Policy will be developed. While we have yet to get trails on the ground in Sydney this has guided decisions in NPs in other areas.
Lets use the publicity and closure as motivation to protect this area as a legitimate bike park.
The Menai area is ideally suited for a trail network and freeride park. It is:
-a significant recreational asset for Sydney
-not on NPWS land
-adjacent to existing sportsfields and carparking
-has no current residential neighbours
-is undesirable for residential development due to land fill and nuclear reactor
-has good emergency access to freeride park
Bugger! My favorite trails are gonsky.
@hawkeye - agree that Feds have better things to do than chase mountain bikers away unless of course national security is at risk or the President is coming. Maybe Obama rides? I remember about 6 months before President Bush came seeing a small jet flying just above the tree tops in the RNP for about an hour in a grid pattern. No way a commercial jet could get permission to fly at 100m like that. turns out they were scouting for somewhere to take George for a ride. He ended up riding St Ives.
@rob - not your average mountain bike advocacy challenge if we're taking on the Feds!
As Far as i have been told, ( by one of the federal officers a month or so ago ) Ansto owns the land in a 1 mile radius from the reactor. Therefore the Badlands behind the ovals is not there land, but sadly all the other freeride stuff ( the good stuff ) across from the reactor is, as well as part of the XC track which starts at the back corner of the tip. But this could be wrong, he seemed quite dippy.
Having just purchased a property in the area, I was looking forward to having my favourite trails on my doorstep so this is a huge blow. For those interested, there are a number of discussions on Rotorburn that have a few more facts. As we are all aware, this area has been of questionable legality forever and these actions are no surprise given the increased usage over the last few years. I was there this morning also, and can verify that there are patrols happening so ride at your own risk.
@ RobbieO. Unfortunately, MTB riders generally park across the road from ANSTO and some even park in their official carpark so this is not entirely the fault of MOTO's who have enjoyed this area for decades.
@ Hawkeye. Your point about security is definitely a large part of the reason. There was recently an incident where security was called to investigate lights in the bush across the road from ANSTO. It turned out to be a couple of MTB riders out for a night ride. If only all terrorists bounced around in the dark with 1000 lumen lights hey. I know I'd sleep alot easier.
Liability must also be a factor as there have been some trail features removed lately due to complaints from bushwalkers.
@ isuldur. The DH area is actually on Aboriginal land so should not be affected by this closure. With regards to this area, there have been recent communications between the trail builders and the landowners in the hope of retaining access.
@ Rob. There have been recent attempts at opening communication between MTB riders and ANSTO to which ANSTO have not replied indicating that they are not open to consultation. I have no idea about law but I would guess that if you dont formally aknowledge something then you can deny any knowledge of it and therefore associated liability. Any lawyers present??? One thought i have is that if ANSTO was a public asset then any land owned by that entity should have its use open to public consultation. Again, any lawyers present?
@ lincolnsydney. As far as I am aware, all of the signs are new as of this week except for one which was in a spot that the majority of riders that park opposite ANSTO would not see. I was concerned when it appeared a few months ago and hoped that it was a token liability exemption effort. Unfortunately, not the case.
As Rob has suggested, we must now take some responsibility and explore any avenues that might lead to legal access in the future. A forum member on Rotorburn called Nerf Herder has offered his time with regards to pursuing options so if you value this area then make contact with him and get involved or make your own voice heard.
I think most of us can admit to a certain degree of apathy with regards to trail access and advocacy and its not untill it affects us directly that we are prompted to consider action. We can either sit at our computers complaining and lamenting on what we've lost or take some action. This is an issue that I feel strongly about and would like others to think about how it affects the sport you love and whether there is more that you could do to help.
Ok, getting off my little box now!!
I almost started crying when I read this news. Red Hill and Menai are my two favourite Sydney trails.
Until we know why this has come about too much speculation will just have us chasing our tails going around in circles. Nothing is going to be changed overnight so it is better to find out the facts and proceed from there.
There was a recent ministerial inquiry on safety that may have stirred something up but I'll be researching to see if I can find more about what was tabled http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs...
ANSTO is a federal organisation because this area constitutionally comes under the authority of the Commonwealth. NSW police have no authority on Commonwealth land and so AFP have to police it, whether that be for national security matters or to hand out littering fines. So you can't draw any inferences from the AFP's presence about the reason to close the access and enforce it.
ANyone know when this land was A) first ridden by motos B) first ridden by MTBs?
The 1.6km radius is known as the Buffer Zone. Under their approval conditions for the current reactor they had to:
"Review the Lucas Heights Buffer Zone Plan of Management (1986), in consultation with relevant stakeholders, to ensure measures required for the protection of the environment during the construction and operation of the proposed replacement reactor are implemented, and to ensure that the biological and conservation values of the buffer zone are maintained. The revised plan must be prepared to the satisfaction of the Department of the Environment and Heritage (Federal)."
This appears to have been updated in 2001, they may have missed some "relevant stakeholders". I am trying to obtain a copy for review.
If recent events are anything to go by the current PoM may be similar to the 1986 plan which treated the area in much the same way as a National Park, the Australian NPWS actually wrote it.
A key action in the 1986 PoM was to "Prevent off-road vehicles by barriers, locked gates and signs" and to patrol the area using the "Australian Protection Service" whom have now merged back into the Australian Federal Police.
It looks like we are again falling under the "vehicle" classification. Lucas Heights, like many other government land managers, have an underlying commitment in their operating approvals to protect the environment to best practice. As we know there has been little guidance to show how this may include mountain biking.
Given the amount of lobbying by green groups opposed to the reactor replacement (low grade Uranium) they may have gone for a very stringent environmental policy in the bush. With the recent scrutiny given to Lucas Heights referenced by Slowman they may have had to implement the actions in the PoM.
The current NSW NPWS Mountain Biking Discussion Paper is very relevant here.
I will update when I have obtained a copy and reviewed the current PoM.
I used to ride motos at menai in 1972 and it was a long established riding area then ,my geuss would be in the mid 60's for moto use.
As I am new to MTB I have no clue!
This is one of a few Jewels in the crown of Sydneys MTB Tracks. Being a local rider for many years, we cannot afford too loose these special places. Myself personally have tried to make contact with Ansto in regards to the land usage ,Access & management, but have had no Response.The riding area is owned by Ansto,Crown & Aboriginal land. All Gov organizations.
We all need to rally together & put forward our protest to this Closure.As stated on other blog sites today, this area is a ideal location for a well managed bike park , ie Stromlo, Mt Bulla Ect. With no residential area nearby ,car parks & sporting fields ajacent to this area it has half the infrastructure in place.
As sugested we should contact as many diferent powers too be too get the positive outcome we require
Contact Craig Kelly MP for Hughes,Sutherland council,NSW Sport & Recreation, Land council ANSTO & whom ever you may think of to state you protest.
...Where do we start and who is going to co-ordinate this.
I have sent ANSTO an email this morning however I doubt anything will come back. This is my favourite and closest track and I am gutted about this.
@duncanallin: What email adress did you use?
Located here:
http://www.ansto.gov.au/contact_ansto#contactform
See ANSTO/Rider Meeting (Re: Menai Closure).
Big, big shout to Steve on this - nothing to do with me!
A number of complaints have been received by ANSTO about trees being cut down etc in the area.
Following this they have now replaced signs and are enforcing the ban on all vehicles as per the current plan of management.
This appears to be very similar to the 1986 PoM which prohibits vehicle access, requires signage and uses the Australian Federal Police as enforcement.
Said the background was that last year complaints were made last year about trees being cut down and jumps being constructed.
The meeting is not open to the public but will be with 2 representatives (Steve and Simon) are you the same Simon?
Anyway thanks for the efforts so far, whomever they are but it seems this forum is the place on the pace.
We had a discussion about liability and I raised the point that in some cases "no trespassing" signs were often used as devices to fend off liability because in the US like here the duty of care is virtually non existent towards trespassers. It was pretty clear from his response that wasn't the issue and the conversation turned back to the preservation of nature which he said they took seriously.
Anyway the message was pretty clear it was an issue of preserving natural values. So if we are to have any hope of permitted access, assurances of sustainable trails and bush preservation are going to be their key negotiating priorities it would seem. Agreeing to a meeting is at least one good sign.
Good work chasing this down guys. Happy to have my assumptions proven wrong.
If there is anything we can do to help, let us know.
Coincidently I have just received an email advising that Sutherland Shire Council's Sport and Recreation Unit is proposing the development of an off road bike park on a large parcel of land within The Ridge Sporting Complex. It is proposed the bike park will incorporate an off road trail around its surrounds, a BMX competition facility and a dirt jumps park. Formal approval by the council is still required and a brief will be going to an internal council meeting in 2 weeks time.
Now I know the proposed development will come no where near the trails that are already existing in Menai however given what the Council is proposing maybe it is worth contacting them and getting their support or advice on how to approach the re-opening of the trails at Menai with ANSTO.
try contacting the Sport and Recreation Project Officer, Sutherland Shire Council
NobMob'ers,
I live down here Menai way, and Lucas Heights is my local ride. Been following your forum posts closely and appreciate the support from our northern beaches brutha's.
What i've done is setup a facebook page at
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Mountainbikersform...
If you and any riders you know could "like" the page, and maybe post a comment, it'll provide a quick and simple way to show how broad support for access to those trails is to those who need to know. If we can get a couple hundred by Thursdays meeting, might provide some good ammo for the gents in the meeting.
Thanks again
Menai Local
Great work by the guys getting a meeting organised so quickly. I look forward to reading the report from the meeting.
"@ Rob. There have been recent attempts at opening communication between MTB riders and ANSTO to which ANSTO have not replied indicating that they are not open to consultation. I have no idea about law but I would guess that if you dont formally aknowledge something then you can deny any knowledge of it and therefore associated liability. Any lawyers present??? One thought i have is that if ANSTO was a public asset then any land owned by that entity should have its use open to public consultation. Again, any lawyers present?"
As our true position is that of trespasser there is not much liability the landholder has towards us. If were invitees or licensees (the other 2 classes of "guest") the duty of care is higher. Highest is to invitees as they would not be there had we not invited them. So landholders need to make them aware of any hazards. Only certain activities give rise to a license to enter lands, say for the purpose of business, but that license is revokable, once told to leave if you don't you just moved down the rung to trespasser.
For this particular parcel of land I can't think of too many purposes where a license might arise perhaps a council or agricultural or wildlife inspector or some such but in most cases unless an agent of the landholder you'd be a trespasser.
Since this is private land, even though held by a government body there is no general right of public access. Perhaps you are thinking of Crown land. Crown land is land without title meaning essentially it belongs to no one so it belongs to the Crown. Even so there is legislation that limits what you can do even on Crown land.
http://www.rotorburn.com/forums/showthread.php?2...
Slowman, I got an email today confirming the meeting so I guess its Steve and me.
After the phone call discussing their PoM on Monday I sent them details of the advocacy work I've been involved with over the last 4 years with others from the beaches and with NPWS. Seemed keen to talk with me.
Will definitely report back.
This is great news.Every MTB rider in sydney is watching in anticipation to a positive outcome. Being a local rider who regularly did trail maintenence out there, its great to see every one rallying together on nobmob,rotorburn,facebook. You guys have our full support.What ever is required to keep these places availible for all use,a lot of support will be given.
Good Luck Thurs
I get out there at least 3 hrs per week doing track maintenence.I have NOT noticed any tress being cut down over the whole main track ( about 12 kms). I must admit that while repairing parts on the trail, braken, rotten & fallen trees have been used as barriers or boarders on the trail.After a storm in jan 2011, right oposite ANSO , 3 trees had fallen. Yes chainsaws were used too clear the blocked trail, & the offcuts used as boarders, water rises ect. Having spent so much time in there over the past 12 months, the only things noticable are the drainage systems put onto the trail to preserve the track.This includes rises & dips to redirct water flow off the trail.Having been so dry over the past 7/8 years or so, this big wet since Oct 2010(wettest may on record) all these measures were put in place to preserve the existing track. Most riders have the best intention to preserve their play ground.
It is essential that the enviroment in which we ride is 1stly ecco freindly, Sustainable & available for all to use......
The main trail is also the walking trail which is probably more than half the problem. Well meaning trail maintenance may be seen as interference by certain people with a different perspective. We are looking at it through mtb riders perpectives. Same way we look at motos as destructive, groups with other perspectives look at mtb in the same light. They may not see or understand the perspective and value we place on the trails and the environment, and that it is in our own interest to protect and maintain them. For me just being out in the scrub and away from the hustle and bustle of life in a big city is one of the main reason I love to ride so much. We share more with other user groups like walkers than they realise.
Sustainable trails are real and there are so many examples elsewhere in the world and Australia.
The see-saw and drop put in near the creek which where torn down were the likely catalyst. Yes attention was drawn to the area through this and so on, but this place is popular, getting more popular, and unregulated.
In the end this had to happen, and if handled correctly can prove to be a positive for the mtb community.
Lets all hope so.
http://www.theleader.com.au/news/local/news/gene...
Not entirely accurate as expected with media reports . The trench and jumps pictured are something I have never seen. Maybe they are the old dirt jumps up towards the tip that someone has recently worked on. They have been out of use for the 3 or so years that I have been riding there. Can anyone confirm?
thats where I though it was as well. And the trench looks like its near the road culvert, that the council worked on recently.......
"Not entirely accurate as expected with media reports"
Their link to rotor burn is entirely INaccurate!
Just wanted to say that my visit a few months back was my first visit, so I had no idea whether those signs were new or old. There were other riders out and about, so we didn't think anything of it. If we'd seen a ranger or heard the news of the OP I'd have posted something. Cheers
Any more on this ongoing issue? Any of the proposed meetings with stakeholders bearing any fruit?
Liam, there are a couple of stickies on Rotorburn. A few guys seem to be making solid progress but it looks like being out of action for a while to come.
Fingers crossed it's short term pain for long term gain.
There are some dedicated rider advocates putting in a lot of time. Some are local and others have had successes and experience with other land mangers.
Talks are ongoing, we will report back as soon as able. Wet weather delayed some tasks and other key people have been away.
Update from Rotorburn
RE: Menai MTB Park - Update September 2011.
Our most recent meeting to discuss the Menai MTB Park Proposal went ahead late August. There to continue discussions with the MTB community were reps from ANSTO, the Sutherland Shire Council, the CEO of the Gandangara Local Aboriginal Land Council, a rep for the local Motor Cross riders and reps from the bushwalking community. Once again, it was overall a success and great that all major groups had the chance to voice their opinions on all matters raised.
Following the meeting, it is clear that our next steps are to address the following main issues:
1. The public liability associated with MTBers participating in a dangerous recreational activity on private land.
2. The Policing of the MTB Park. Whether self Policing from MTBers would suffice, or would more patrolled policing be required, such as SSC staff and Australian Federal Police.
3. To have the MTB Park Proposal fit into the proposed ‘Conservation Park’ as part of the overall GLALC Development Proposal for Menai Ridge.
4. Continued trail rationalisation to reduce existing trail network from the current 68km to 37km, leaving 7km of existing walking trails and leading to 31km of trail closures and rehabilitation. Examine the consequences of shared access trails for walkers and riders.
5. The appropriate design, construction, signage and maintenance of existing and new singletrack network, in line with the International Mountain Bike Association guidelines. Catering for all levels of rider abilities and riding styles.
6. To establish a Memorandum of Understanding, to outline the required roles and responsibilities of the concerned parties; outline how Grant Funding will be spent; and to formally develop the Menai MTB Park project plan.
In the meantime, we appreciate riders’ patience and I once again strongly recommend all MTBers avoid riding these trails while we continue to make positive progress to create a dedicated MTB facility in the area.
Steve Mowle [email protected]
To all involved, thanks
Another positive sounding update on Rotorburn:
"Just a quick update.
Happy times not to far away.
Since our last meeting where we proposed a 37km sustainable MTB trail network with all land owners two major players have been working super hard on Trail sustainability studies, Alternate trail routing, Signage and trail allocation.
The others items that still need serious attention in reguards to Funding, Policing the area to unlawfull users and illegal trail building..
We have another Meeting on the program to discuss drafted trail signage and trail grading / directions.
This is a great step for our MTB Community so once again thank you for staying outa the Menai Mtb trail network until we are given the go ahead. The land owners respect our passion on this matter and are greatful for our co-operation.
Stay tuned
Pez"
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Menai-MTB-Park-pro...
note: rider meeting slated for the 20th Nov 11
Menai MTB Park
Public meeting regarding the proposed Menai MTB Park:
When: Sunday November 20, 2pm
Where: Sutherland Shire Cycling Club clubhouse,
Rawson Pde, Waratah Park, Sutherland.
Agenda:
- To provide an updated summary of our current situation.
- To define our goal - to provide The Sutherland Shire with a sustainable, environmentally friendly, recreational facility in the Shire’s west, right in the heart of the Shire’s major growth area.
- To discuss the potential affiliation with the Sutherland Shire Cycling Club, as well as with
Mountain Biking Australia and the International Mountain Biking Association.
- To ask questions and take feedback regarding the Menai MTB Park.
Apologies if I'm duplicating I did quickly search