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Motos destroying jump tracks
Hi all,
Recently a notice was put up at the bottom of one of the jump tracks from Red Hill (see image).
Not sure how long it's been there but around december 2012 i took the other photos of one of three motos getting ready to set off from the Sports Centre. The other two riders were waiting at the bottom of said track where it comes out onto the Parkway but I couldn't get a photo of them.
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BTW I did call Dee Why police immediately to inform them, mainly due to the fact that none of the bikes appeared to be registered. They seemed genuinely interested and promised to send a "unit" down to investigate ASAP. I left my contact details but i can't recall if I gave them the rego of the LandCruiser.
I never heard back.
its probably better calling Frenchs Forest police. My wife is on a bit of a mission about the moto's at Red Hill and it doesn't matter if the bikes are registered or not they aren't allowed in the area. If you give the police the bikes/car number plates they will look them up and call them Plus there are now more signs up at all proper entrances to Red Hill stating motorbikes are not legal and that it is a $2200 fine if caught.
as much as it sucks i wouldnt even bother calling the Cops as they arent going to do anything about it
Your better off letting all the tyres down on the tow vehicles and their trailers and leave them a letter under their wipers telling them their tyres will be slashed next time they are caught. Post pictures up so everyone knows who they are
oops, double post
So where exactly are/aren't they allowed at Red Hill or not at all?
I ride home and just do the main fire trail from Dreadnought rd down through to Maybrook ave and even yesterday arvo there were fresh dirtbike trails the whole way along (even on the way out behind the retirement village).
If they're entering via Dreadnought, isn't that technically a road or driveway?
I've seen (and heard) them a few times over the recent weeks - how should we be dealing with them? just photos of the offenders forwarded onto someone like FF constabulary?
Well if you come along the main fire trail from Lady P drive, just past the houses there is a 'new' gate. Just before that gat where there is a fork in the fire trail there is a sign referring to motorbikes. There is the same sign if you enter from Cromer heights and booker avenue. I believe there also a sign on Wakehurst Parkway at the bottom of 4WD folley but cannot confirm. Basically ALL of Red Hill is out of bound for motorbikes. Yes they are still up there just about every single day of the week.
If you see moto's up there you can call the police, tell them which entrance you saw them nearest and they will record it. If you can give them their rego plate, the FF ploice will either call them and warn them or make the effort to pay them a visit at their house. If you see moto's being unloaded from a ute or trailer you can also give the police rego details of said ute or trailer.
I guess you could take phots but rego seems fine for the fuzz. I would only suggest a photo if you had the time and the bikes were unregistered.
Thanks Sean - i'll scope it out later this week..
on another note, is there somewhere nearby where they are actually allowed? Education can help
i'd like to be able to mention "you're not allowed here, try xyz" rather than only "you're not allowed here"
They don't always appreciate having it suggested to them that they are up there illegally. I ride or walk Red Hill 4 or 5 days a week, generally mid morning. Rarely am I up there and there isn't fresh signs that they've been there in the previous 24hrs. More and more common.
I've had responses that have varied from genuine "wasn't aware, don't want to be doing the wrong thing" to " get f@#$%d c$#t. We created these trails.
Final straw for me was being left feeling a little isolated and alone after a less than comfortable response from a couple of riders. They assured me they were allowed to ride there. After I questioned as to why they had removed and turned their rear number plates over, they went from being simply argumentative to downright nasty. I won't approach or speak with them anymore.
And yes I have called the cops previously to report both riders and feral 4wds' up there. Tried council rangers also. They will not approach moto riders.
Sometimes you end up just feeling like a serial complainant.
@dangersean. I know your wife and fully agree with her and appreciate her efforts.
Still the best place to ride on the Northern Beaches though. More bikes and walkers should = less motos'.
Cheers
For what its worth I cut my teeth riding mini bikes up here in the 70's and still rode bikes there until a few years back. Whilst I don't like the idea of riders tearing up our single track we did cut most of these trails on our bikes back in the day. We might not even have use of these trails if it weren't for us!
I ride mountain bikes now with my kids and we share these trails with all types. Get the shits by all means but be very careful about becoming a wowser. If we keep up this big bitch we may all get locked out.
Hi all
I have been meeting with all the land managers up there and are making progress with formal recognition of these trails.
There is general support for mountain biking. Moto's significantly less and it is agreed that moto's are an issue to be resolved. There is justifiable concern about spending money on formal tracks that get ripped up by motos.
The same applies to constructing erosion and sedimentation controls on the gullied fire trails. By this I don't mean a few water bars.
With some of the old DH tracks the motos made a massive mess of to the point of not be repairable. This was mainly from cutting in B lines that they could ride down which stuffed the water flow and eroded the place out. The A lines followed the natural rock drops and didn't interfere with existing water flow.
@jeddz it would help us if you could summarise which tracks motos cut in? There are also a few parts that both user groups claim.
Simon,
great that talks are happening, but isn't the issue being missed?
moto's are no longer legal in the area. registered or not.
Simon,
I appreciate the efforts made to maintain access to the network of trails and I can't ignore the influence of the land managers. Mountain biking is a newish activity compared to horse riding, 4WD and motorbikes that have for many decades enjoyed the freedom of these trails. We are currently debating carving up this land for subdivision so we can easily see the priorities of the land managers.
My point is if we continue a trend of limiting use and access, and we try to define what's legal or not we will be successful only in silencing voices that are ours to use in the fight against a Goliath that really cares less about the bush than you and I do.
I think its a bit of a long bow to draw. We might not have the same trails exactly, but there would still be mtb trails.
My observation of moto cut trails is that they soon becom very unpleasant to ride on an mtb if not impassable for most peoples skill level. The experience of the OP is why most folks including the land managers want motos gone.
If motos want to be able to stay they need to get organised, work to get their house in order and start addressing the issues people have wirh them and their behaviours similar to the way mtb has with IMBA.
Until there is evidence of culture and behaviour change, this kind of thing just motivates the other stakeholders to work harder at excluding motos.
For 5 years I have been trying when we have meetings to get their involvement.
I have approached shops and club members. The response has been they don't support riding at Red Hill as its not appropriate.
Individual riders at Red Hill have shown apathy.
Moto riders in my building said "We only ride there because we can get away with it. The place is only good for a quick ride as its only a few minutes long and not worth putting time into saving."
There has been no involvement or submissions to government processes such as the Plan of Management for the area I am aware of.
They have not spoken at public meetings.
When they were offered a free website like NobMob to coordinate themselves, again there was nothing.
Moto has not been permitted up there for many years, the signs just come and go. Policing it is the biggest issue which is why there is valid concern about spending government money up there. It's been years since police chased people up there on dirt bikes.
I get that mountain biking is newish with about 30 years of history up there and massive growth in the last 15. However it seems like we are the first to try and address the issues up there. Support from some of the other user groups to address the land managers concerns would be great. At the moment we are a user group that is trying to fix legacy issues we have largely inherited from these other users.
If these user groups want their voice to be taken seriously then they need to start resolving the issues.
In terms of politics I am hesitant about aligning ourselves with motos. We currently are already a massive user group and we have support from some of the most influential green group members in the area and the land managers. Motos don't. Motos jumping on our band wagon is a key fear of green groups and one of the reasons they were against us.
While I'm happy to talk with them, combining our voice could back fire immensely in the world of advocacy politics.
Yes, expect further development for houses. Population growth is a real problem and the reality is more houses will be built. I personally expect much of the land on the flat to eventually go. TrailCares focus is from the XC loops and the ridge line behind Garden of Gullies to and including Garigal. Ie all the land that slopes down to Wakehurst Parkway in both directions. These land owners also have other goals than just investment and speculation.
Of course if we can get track in these other areas then bonus. Perhaps preserving some corridors could work.
Jeddz - I fail to see your point. The fact of the matter is the rules have changed over the last 20 years and Moto bikes are now ILLEGAL at Red Hill as sign posted (if someone gives me instructions on how to load photos I have examples of both the signs and the 'trail cutting' motos have done up there - read decimated bush).
Twenty years ago you could ride in the Quarry at Terrey Hills, in Belrose, Ingleside and Oxford Falls….
7 years ago MTB riders could also ridden Oxford Falls.
Not that long ago surf skis were allowed to go anywhere they wanted and people could smoke in pubs, on planes and in restaurants. Times change and so do rules.
It is dangerous to have motorbikes up there on the trails sharing with other users based on visibility - the trails are windy, technical and thin. They don't have long vision and the bikes travel too fast to stop. Due to their motors they can't HEAR other users.
It simply is not sympathetic to the trails for moto bikes to be there. The sandstone is too soft to start with and the trails are getting trashed and eroded… look at the damage caused by the alternative way down from Lady Penhryn Drive which is now almost inaccessible for ANYONE as the ruts are too deep.
Simon says public looking at photos of XC and Down Hill bike riders find the DH riders intimidating… what about the Moto riders who have their equipment plus a rocking engine? And I don't know who you are representing Simon, but I for one, DO NOT want to be affiliated with Motobikes - they can travel to Ourimbah, Wattagans and Pacific Park to enjoy their sport in a designated non-shared environment. And signs do not 'come and go' they are posted by the Department of Lands
Apathy won't stop them. Call the local police. If enough people do they WILL attend to the complaints.
There is a fine of $2200 if the police catch them, the word simply needs to get out to them that it's not a free for all.
Not sure if we've misinterpreted each other but just confirming TrailCare only represents off road bikes with pedals and no motors.
My last post was a response to Jeddz opinion that motos are users that could assist us in preventing development. So far this seems unlikely.
All I meant was if any of the motorized users would like to be involved in the process of sorting this place out that would be welcome. This either means fixing it up and demonstrating issues can be resolved or assisting the land owners in getting the message out that riding there is not permitted. As I said before the potential for motos to destroy our work is a key concern. My main point to the land managers is once we have formalized access, rather than just not being banned we can more easily assist with this.
TrailCare is not offering to represent motos.
As with other areas the signs go when they are ripped down by illegal users and come back when replaced by land managers such as Department of Lands (only covers part of Red Hill). This has been an ongoing cycle of events at places such as Red Hill and Menai. All user groups have had fringe elements partaking in this activity. Even walkers whom have been known to remove mountain bike permitted signs in some national parks. Mtb riders have also removed no mtb signs from National Parks.
however, it's a moot point since the motobikes are not allowed at Red Hill - Menai may be a different case...in the end.
Bearing in mind trail bikes are banned, discussing anything with them is a waste of time.
Hi all
I don't ride MTB anymore but I do ride a moto. I was forwarded your moaning by a mate who rides both. I have just got off the phone from Northern Beaches Highway Patrol. As we are registered and licensed riders and red hill has designated roads we are allowed access. Entering at Lady Penryn Drive and Cromer Road is illegal, not just to motos but bikes as well as they are private service roads this is the reason for the signs, entry from the wake hurst parkway water tanks - where there IS no sign is perfectly legal. Not all of us are destroying your tracks. We ride the old fire trail up to the mx track at the top and spend most of the time on the rock faces hopping and climbing up and down them. The blokes I ride with and have encountered up there on motos are nothing but courteous to the pushie riders pedestrians and horse riders. We give way where possible and don't disturb the natural terrain apart from on the track. From what the cop said you guys cause more damage than us with your shovels, maddocks and saws. I'm not posting this to argue or say you guys are whining but we ARE allowed there and threatening to let or slash our tires will only cause more problems. We ride our bikes there legally on the road anyway.
"I was forwarded your moaning "
and then....
"I'm not posting this to....say you guys are whining"
I'm certain that's exactly what you're doing.
FWIW the guys I noted in the OP were waiting at the perimeter fence of the sports centre, not near the tanks. And as you can see the bike in the pic is unregistered (and judging by the noise, unregisterable).
Can anyone confirm if the signs at the Lady Penryn gate also list MTB's as forbidden? It's been a while but i don't remember bicycles pictured on the list of forbidden activities? definitely motos are listed....
Signs to not list MTB as there is no way of policing it due the fact that you guys are unregistered and unregulated. Also the majority of the land is owned by the church so the rangers and police cannot book a registered or licensed rider until the church lodge a complaint of tresspassing
I'm sorry but you guys are pissing and moaning over an issue you are all misinformed about and don't have the slightest clue as too what to do. This may be a slight indication of how paying motorist feel with cyclist clogging up sydney roads. Just saying!!! Relax and share what is there to be enjoyed by all
We know a few things and are working with all the land managers except the church. This covers State, Council and MLALC land owners and the majority of Red Hill and Oxy. This is based on our land ownership maps.
As I have posted please contact me if you are able to constructively contribute to the process. Unfortunately motos are the only user group that has not been contributing to the discussion.
It would be good if you could tell me which fire trails you believe are formal public tracks. From my understanding the track you mention goes through private land owned by MLALC.
G'day mate. I don't know the ins and outs but as the police enforce the rules and regs I saved my time and asked them directly. I was informed that we are riding in a legal area. As long as we have rego and license then they will not stop us best of luck and we will enjoy sharing the dirt with you. And as we are not breaking any laws I do not feel the need to join any discussions or community groups. The area is there for all to use. We will continue using it until the police or church inform us otherwise. The signs erected by council don't apply to the entrance we use as it isn't their land to control, nor is it yours or mine. But I guess it wouldn't be hard to organize a ride with 20-25+ motos to go there for a day trip on the weekend and check out the whole area we are allowed in. And if we ride there legally on the road you can damage our cars!
And in my opinion the more attention you guys draw to this by bitching and moaning about who can go there the more chance there is of it being shut down by the greenies and do gooders who ruin a fun way to spend your time off.
Hi Cam
I just got forwarded your email and mobile. Will call you in next few weeks, will email you mine.
Will chase up boundaries etc, seems like some of the land owners views and those of the police aren't aligned.
We are also in regular contact with the greenies. Need to keep everyone on side.
Simon
I have been riding motos, Mtb and jogging, walking the dog for over 35 yrs up at Red hill and my father was raised in the old squatters camp near deep creek in the 40s so im very well versed in the area. I ride both my Mtb and moto (yes it has redgo) from my home at Narrabeen on the Parkway up to the sport and rec park and go in just on the edge of there border. I never take my moto on your single or dh tracks as i prefer to tackle some more open rocky bits to hone my skills i do agree its a small area and any speed over 20kph is to fast there for the safety of others. If i see Mtb or horse or walkers i stop turn off the bike and have a chat as they pass there is never a problem. The reason it wont be policed is there are to many boundries up there. Water/b , church land, sport and rec, crown land and even if you had been up there before xmas you would have seen K Edwards had a section of privite land for sale that runs up to the fenced carvings. I know keith and he hates any one on his land Mtb or motos so every one is there illegal. So please lets have no talk of slashing tyres and make a effort to get along as the bush is there to share soon the only ones allowed will be the walkers cheers Tony Ps if i saw some one on a moto ruining your man made dh tracks i would be the first to tell them to poll there heads in as i love both sports and want to see them grow.
Unfortunately or fortunately, depending on your point of view, registered trail bikes are legitimate on these trails. Always have been. As I said I don't ride there anymore but who knows one day I may again. As a registered vehicle they have a huge voice and are supported by government, police, council ect.
Don't polarise the motos. Its true the trails are in much worse condition now than they were and dont go blaming the motos cause its the mtbs cutting new track up there.
Im leaving this discussion with what i've heard said many times over the years, "if you can ride a bike here you can ride one any where." It's a great place to ride!
If the land managers have erected signs saying motos stay out, then you are in all senses of the word trespassing if you continue to use the area to ride.
yes but i do not pass any signs
it seems that it's not you guys on Moto's that are the issue here, its the tools that tear it up when its wet with no respect for what we have, that goes for MTB riders that ride when its too wet and the ones that cut new trails and build random "unauthorized" stuff up there..
Anyhow I always worry about insurance and liability of motos up there, what if they hit someone? would scare the crap out of me!
Whoever runs this forum should pull aside the fool who's talking about slashing tyres, and tell him to shut the f@#% up. I too, ride both MTB and Moto up there. I'm embarrassed as a MTBer that your website has gained the attention of Moto forums that I belong to with these childish outbursts. It is legal on a regoed bike. End of story. When MTBing up there I always did track maintinance only to find endless B lines C lines being ripped through the DH sections. If I were you I'd keep a low profile and enjoy the tracks. As for the moto's on the Dh tracks. They deserve a flogging if their riding them. Tell them, Put some signs asking for respect of the DH run you build illegally.You will probably get the respect and they will be left alone. If not, Beat on them. But trying to have Moto's banned and have it all to MTB is unlikely, and will most likely just get all of us banned.
Exactly Obmal. Regoed Moto's have full insurance for third party's, just like MTB don't.
I really only ride the moto there 2 or 3 times a year but if i do want to ride there i hate being told you cant when i know i can. When im running up there the mtb are more danger as they are silent atleast you can hear the motos a mile off. I have no gripe with any one and i hope to be seeing you all much more up on the the hill cheers Tony
actually some Cyclists do have liability insurance, I know I do.
you live in the past or don't want something to be true doesn't make it not true.
Motos are not legal at Red Hill registered or not - the rules have changed - get with the program people.
If someone would kindly send instructions on how to post a picture I can post the sign so you can all see it - clearly your vision is impaired when riding a moto bike past them at speed since they are dotted all over Red Hill - 'private' land or 'church' or council...
Burt you are wrong mate. The nsw police (frenchs forest highway) are responsible for policing the places motos ride. I spoke with them and freely gave them my name, license number and bike rego number. He informed me entering from the wakehurst parkway near the water tanks or following and staying outside the boundary of the sports academy IS LEGAL. The signs erected at Cromer road and Lady Penryn entrances are there because private property is used to access the rest of the legal riding area. The people/companies that own this land can ban MTB and pedestrians if they wanted too. The northern beaches has very limited space for both MTB and motos. Red hill is legal to ride providing you have a rego'd bike and a current nsw motorcycle license. I have both and I will continue to ride there. Burt learn to share the area that is there for all to use. You don't own it. At the end of the day though having discussions on a forum will not change the fact that we are allowed and we will continue to use the area.
And if you could please point out all the signs supposedly dotted all over red hill it would be appreciated. I am aware of 3. Above the academy dam, Cromer road entrance and lady Penryn drive entrance.
...and interesting.
I haven't been there since well before Christmas. When I called Dee Why police they called back looking for the motorbikes to fine them.
Frenchs Forest police also say you are illegal, registered or not and ask for number plates in the event they can't get there or find you.
As for the signs... could I decipher the way to upload I would but you can see them for yourself next time you are there.
Illegally.
Burt, you cant upload photos unless its in the opening post. To share a photo, create an account on PhotoBucket, upload your images there and then copy the link here.
http://s1287.beta.photobucket.com/user/dangersea...
Chopstir let's hope this works?
On your Photo Bucket page click on "direct link" and this will copy the image URL to your clipboard. The URL provided above is for the web page not the image itself.
Here is the code you will need to share your photo. Remove the hashtag (#) I have entered. If you sharing another, replace the url and adjust the size so its not to big. Always do a preview first to make sure the image fits in the page well.
<#img src="http://i1287.photobucket.com/albums/a636/dangersean1/84DD9C07-DDA3-4B7A-B7E3-9A4EC170A434-8519-00000AD44A1470CA_zpseb838e05.jpg" width="60%" Height="60%">
Finished product=
Courtesy of Burt. Click to see full-size images.
[Mod. images removed - placed in wrong gallery]
"And the damage the motos have done ignoring the obvious intent of the gate:"
Looks a little wide for a moto don't you think?
Wouldn't be a 4WD pushing through the bush would it mate?
Pan the camera to the left and you will see where the MTBs and motos go around the gate!
Look to left where the moto's and MTBs go past the gate.... Just after the sign saying no motorbikes?
Hahahahahaha...
Apparently I put 'em in the wrong place...
No idea of whether it was a 4WD or not, not my photo.
I will say however, it is consistent with damage I've seen elsewhere both within Red Hill and other sites where it's clearly been motos. The channel cut by you guys at the bottom of Drop Zone you can fit a bus in.
I ride both MTB and moto at Red Hill, and I would never claim that we haven't caused any damage to the tracks with MTBs, but let's face it, unfortunately both the sports cause damage to the environment, but so do other activities. Its unfortunate, but that is life.
I also appreciate how much work and effort goes into building the tracks (shame that it is illegal to build MTB tracks through the bush) and I would never destroy any of these when on my Moto because I enjoy riding them on my pushy!
I think we all should be a little careful about accusing each other about riding "illegally"! Whether we are on a moto or MTB at Red Hill we should only be riding on the fire trails and not on the single tracks that have been "cut in" without any approvals!
Don't get me wrong, any unregoed MXers and unlicensed riders should be fined and stopped, you will probably find that these are the wankers wrecking it for everyone.
The evidence is well established that mtbs only cause as much impact as equivalent numbers of foot traffic. Verified by multiple studies conducted by independent parties over a number of years.
400 watts of power from human legs versus 40kw of hydrocarbon fuelled engine - there are two orders of magnitude (100 times) difference there.
It should be plain to any rational observer there is a qualitative difference between the impact of mountain bikes and motos and trying to lump them into the same category as far as the size of their environmental footprint is concerned to support your position is fantasy.
You Are spot on 14orange we are both to blame. Its sad that it has come to light on other forums that this one is threating to slash tyres and take photo,s of motos whats next maybe make a citzens arrest. It would not take to much for a pissed off a moto rider who has had his tyres slashed or had his photo handed to cops to walk around RedHill moving the rocks that have been placed there for drop downs, move all the pallets, remove carpets, block single trail with logs it would cause kaos galore so instead of trying to piss a moto rider off with taking photos maybe stop them and have a chat about where you would like them to stay out of. Just because i dont like or agree with someones chosen sport does not mean it should be banned... Base jumping i think is so so stupid and Hunting for fun but they are sports and have there followers so i let them be. Cheers Tony PS as for the signs i dont ride where the signs are that top pic of the gate is the start of my mate Keiths 25 acres so no one is allowed there really walking riding or on a moto.