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carbon bikes
NB: Originally posted elsewhere on the Global Riders Network and appears via syndication.
im about to buy a new bike, and was after some advice, some people are telling me to stay away from carbon,others are saying its the best, im thinking of getting the specialized epic comp in the carbon, and just want to know if anyone has this bike and what are there thoughts, and on carbon bikes in general,been told if you crash they break easy etc,also what warranty specialised bikes have on carbon bikes, any help would be great,
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This is a bit of a popcorn topic (as in buy a box of popcorn, sit back and watch the fur fly).
I'd say it depends a lot on the brand and the customer service focus of the local distributor.
Alloy is tougher and less likely to break, but carbon is vastly more repairable. Some will disagree with me on this, that's OK. I'm going on feedback from a couple of sources I regard as credible, including an interpretation from an Australian name brand distributor of what the lifetime of a frame means in the context of "lifetime" warranty across a number of different materials. Their view is fatigue isn't covered by warranty, as it's not a manufacturing fault. Carbon has the shortest fatigue life of the options they sell, according to him.
The bottom line is that all frames will be subject to breakages, regardless of materials. Even high end steel and Ti frames will crack. What you want to know who is the easiest to deal with and will get you back on a working and safe bike in the shortest time with the least hassle. Giant and Yeti have excellent reputations in this regard. Others will pipe up with their experience I'm sure.
Don't buy a bike based on the premise it will be stronger then something else. There are plenty of broken alloy and carbon bikes out there. In saying that, carbon doesn't like impact in the wrong way. I've been on rides where guys have crashed their carbon bikes without any issues and I've also been on rides where frames have been broken.
I have the Epic Marathon and love it. I use mine just for racing and training. Anything social and generally the 140mm dually 26" comes out but that's just me
Buy a bike that, you can afford, fits you, looks good and rides nice. Most importantly, enjoy the shopping
So long as they have been engineered by someone who knows what they are doing strength is no issue. There are some big differences. This means under normal riding and all the odd angles and loading that could happen. Hopefully this includes the odd stack and impact.
The biggest uncertainty is manufacturing and the thing that scared me the most about it at uni. Very small random bubbles can make an otherwise good design fail. Manufacturing processes have been refined and designs given allowance for some of the uncertainties. This was the biggest concern by fellow students that made them for their final year thesis.
From what I hear some of the allowances have previously meant similar weight components to aluminium. Things have gotten better.
I haven't heard many stories lately of broken bikes, bars and seatposts like I heard when carbon parts first began appearing on mountain bikes.
Aluminium bikes went through this same learning curve. I remember riding in the late '90s in NZ seeing guys on the side of the track crying that their new high end aluminium frame with oversized tubing had snapped.
All bikes and components are disposable items. When bits break replace them. As the post above says, only buy what you can afford to break. I wouldn't want fear of breaking my bike holding me back on a ride.
buy it enjoy it and replace it when needed.
im happily the owner of a carbon 26 stumpjumper , that's done a few jumps here and there and over 2000kms in the 10 mths ive owned it . ive now backed the purchase up with a carbon 29r stumpy. if they break .. it happens , either repair frame( or time buy a replacment frame ) or just part it out.
dunno about u , but i plan to purchase / replace new bike every 12-24mths just to make sure everything is fresh/up to date and there is also nothing better then owning a new bike with new colour/design
i think the biggest decision is picking frame design/susp travel to suit u . epic is quite an XC machine , but wont quite be as fun to jump/play as other bigger travel bikes.
end of the day they have warranty for a brand new bike.. if u going to cough up the money the most important thing is that your happy with the bike .. happy shopping !
i have a carbon rocky mountain altitude (prob said that too much here) anyway its great. i have had numerous stacks, jumps and even hit by a car --- that was feb 5th and up to then was great
following the car incident the carbon mainframe has one small hole that can be repaired while the rear triangle, that is alloy, needs replacing .... not to mention the rear wheel ... its toast!
in reguards to hawkeye above: if carbon wasnt up to scratch they (bike companies) wouldnt build everything from roadies to DH bikes with it, not to mention all the extra components and do dads that are made. Its also stronger than the exact alloy frame ... pink bike was allowed into a test facility and there is a video that shows (intense???) carbon bikes against their alloy brothers ... interesting ... Im talking proper bike companies here not ebay china copies ... although they might be just as strong depending on the fabrication process and quality.
i think carbon is they way to go, the ride is so much more ... ... ... awesome, its hard to tell exactly where it is better but just everywhere... unless you damage the frame out in the middle of no where ..... but unless the mechanic has a tig welder for alloy you are out of luck anyway!!!
i would say test ride the two models are compare for yourself. . .
thanks for all the comments,the bike im looking at is the 2013 specilized epic comp carbon 29r, because i am a short arse at 5'6,alot of the bikes are to big for me,ruled out the merida xt carbon hardtail,the ktm, and cant get the giant xtc until end of april, doing a 24 race in march in canberra,so trying to get it before then, mainly want to use it for xc races and you know 12hrs etc, or if any shops in perth have a xtc 1 29r in small,please let me know,
Pinkbike on facebook shared a photo today of the carbon brakes they will be testing
All of the above points have pretty much covered everything you have asked - other than warranty.
In my experience, Specilaized are excellent at honoring their warranty on frame failures. Assuming its manufacturing issues therre will be no problems at all.
If you 'lay it down' and it breaks in some capaciity, each element of the frame is available on its own (rather than buying a full bike) - so the seat stays, chainstays, front end - they can all be provided seperately, which softens the blow a fair bit.
Steve01 (on here) broke his seat stay in a crash, and it was replaced within a week at a very reasonable cost.
The Specs are great bikes - you wont go wrong if you develop a relationship with a good retailer who will look after you.
The best carbon deal I've heard of recently was a Northern Sydney LBS doing the Giant Carbon Anthem for $6.1K with special wheels and lots of bling. Anthems are your commodore but they work very well if you're not a snob (no disrespect to my very good friends on S-works, really)
But don't avoid carbon because some mate somewhere told you that carbon frames spontaneously combust at the sight of the first sharp rock (or concrete pillar at 5:00).
http://youtu.be/xreZdUBqpJs
I run an Epic S-Works 29r so the frame is similar to the bike you thinking about. I've had it close to two years and its had a hardish life. I've thrown it down a rock face, looped it down a 2 mtr washout, run into roos (or they ran into me?), broken ribs coming off it, used it for all terrain riding (no mountains in WA), done something like 8,000+ km on it, the frame is scratched but thats par for an MTB, I've replaced all the running gear due to wear, the only thing I've broken on the bike is Noir Carbon bars as I crashed (again!) in a rather grotty rock garden.
The carbon rims have just been trued for the first time (after 8000km).
So in my experience the Carbon frame and rear triangle are quite robust. The scratches are not into the carbon so, as far as I am concerned I much prefer my carbon frame to the alloy ones I've had. If you looking for good support from an LBS Midland Cycles and their other shop Armadale Cycles, have given me excellent support and a good deal on bikes.
I think of it this way,
How much better a rider is the carbon going to make you?
Do you have a habbit of falling off the bike?
Do you want to spend money now and enjoy your bike for years or do you like to update your bikes regularly?
What is the price difference and will this added cost really make the bike that more enjoyable to ride?
Are you simply buying it because you want to be able to tell people you ride a carbon bike? or do you have a genuine reason for wanting it?
I would love a carbon bike but honestly dont believe the exta cost will be justified at my level of ability. Am i going to become a world class cross country or downhill rider by simply buying carbon, no way in hell, so my next bike will be an alloy bike.
Just some food for thought and a totally different point of view
Great advice here. Very rational approach to buying a bike. Almost as rational the approach that a pro rider would use to buy a bike that could make the difference between winning and 2nd place.
However, let's all take a step back and be honest with ourselves. One part of owning a bike, owning anything actually, is the emotional reward that bike gives you. Some people (I would say all people) like to have nice things. I'm sure many of us have felt the tug of 'bling' when buying replacement parts for our bikes. It's a real thing.
To ignore this or to look at it negatively means you can walk into the shop wanting a base model 'good-enough' bike and walk out with the 'range-topper' because you failed to recognise that need and let it take you by surprise.
Figure out why you want a carbon bike. If it's to show off to your friends, then maybe re-think it a bit. But if it's because you like to have stuff that is in some way better (whatever the hell that means), then accept it and go with it.
If you want it and can afford it, buy it
Some great practical advice already given so I'll keep my two cents brief.
Think about what is important to you & buy accordingly.
Also, you also can't lump all carbon frames together as that would be like saying "a metal frame" this is because carbon can be layed up to be as strong or as light as the manufacturer decides. Usually this is fairly obvious by the frame design whether XC, Allmountain or downhill.
I believe that the carbon frames that the top companies are producing now very good, I personally wouldn't get a no name Chinese frame due to zero back up/warranty but that's my opinion.
Personally I quite fancy a Stumpy or Camber carbon frame but want to build it to my own spec.
On another note my most ridden bike is my least valuable & heaviest one. It's an 5" travel alu Enduro duallie from 05. It hasn't a single original part on it & gets abused on a regular basis. It has more scratches than a B52's Loveshack single and still amazes me with it's plush but planted ride....
Ride for the moment
T
As said, some of the advice is great!
I'll add, that carbon bikes from the good brands are great! Crashing really doesn't matter too much with the carbon frames unless it's going to t-bone a rock with say the top tube or the down tube and you're body weight is behind it. The likelyhood of this happening is very slim and you'll be a wreck yourself. So don't stress it too much. Also, if you're worried about the longevity of the frame, I was riding up until I had my first bub a 6 year old carbon rush. The thing was mint! No fatigue, no breakages and I rode it pretty hard. In 6 years, carbon manufacturing has come a long way, not only in material development, but also construction development and design.
Bottom line, if you want carbon and can afford/justify it by what ever means you see fit. Go for it!!! Don't let people's hearsay scare you away from carbon if you've got your heart set on some bling!
Don't do it..........................How the hell am i ever going to keep up now!!!
I have broken every Al xc, am and free ride bike I have ever owned.
Been riding carbon bikes since 07. Have crashed and bashed and chipped them. The first one I bought is still going strong as my muck around bike the only reason I replaced it is because I could and wanted something more racey
Those that say to avoid carbon are either stuck in the early 90s (where carbon was done cheap using wrong techniques) or buying the wrong brands or something
Carbon can be strong or it can be weak, depending on weight and mfg process etc.
I had a 1994 carbon merida mtb, which I trashed and bashed. It survived very well and I only just put it in the bin (18 years of use later). But it was not light. The main thing with carbon is not to sever any of the fibres, otherwise it does become very weak at that point.
As for ally, my understanding is that the 7000 series is way more repairable than 6000 series (the latter requires a week of baking to set the welds off).
2c
thanks for all the advice,i finally got a bike and am very happy with it, so hope to see you all out on the trials soon
What did you end up getting?
i actually went with the original bike i was going to get,but most shops told me they couldnt get them for 3 months,on a long shot, i rang a bike shop down the coast port kennedy cycles,and he can get me one in two weeks,its a giant xtc hardtail,so i cant wait to ride it
http://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/riverton/bicycles......
100% legit
See:
http://www.bicycling.com/maintenance/repair-main...
So carbon or 7000 series alu are the go for repairability.
Aldo at Quantum Cycles in Perth does both - highly recommended.
I thought 7000 series was aircraft grade, which is good for riveting but not so good for welding. 6000 series needs to be properly heat treated when welding and repairs should include additional buttresses to beef up the heat affected zone but otherwise it is easier to work with and much more suitable for cycling applications than 7000 series
I want one of the fancy Ibis HD (the 160 travel version), anyone know much about them, other than their exuberant price tag...
I wasn't aware that 6000 series was better for bicycles.
Certainly my 7000 series ally roadie repair Aldo did for me following my off was straightforward. The welds only needed to 'rest' for a few weeks, didn't need baking. It all came up a treat.
I see that some mtb's come in 7000 series - like the Rocky Mountains....
And to take this thread even more off topic, I'll wouldn't mind a fancy Ibis bomber too
The only way I’ll get an Ibis...
A nerd was walking down the sidewalk one day when his friend, another nerd, rode up on an incredible shiny new bicycle.
The first nerd was stunned by his friend's sweet ride and asked, "WOW! Where did you get such a nice bike?"
The second nerd replied, "Well, yesterday I was walking home, minding my own business, when a beautiful young woman rode up to me on this bike. She threw the bike to the ground, took off all her clothes and said, 'Take what you want!'"
I just purchased the 160 HD and really love it, had to sell my first born, but hey you can always have more kids.
On the carbon issue my mate had one of the early enduro carbon and cracked it earlier in the year, even though the frame was 4 years old specilized replaced it with a new frame.
If they can make jet fighters and passenger planes out of the stuff, I'm sure it's strong enough for mountain bikes
It's never the material at fault...........only the application of the material.
Do your scouring for these.
I got a full bike (brand spankin' new 2011 model) back in October with RC4 for $3k.
Bargains are out there.....
I've run both an Alloy and a Carbon Epic 29er. Carbon hands down. Lighter, rides better. Love it and never looked back. I wouldn't buy another alloy bike.
Just bought a full Carbon DH bike, haven't received it but if it is anything like the Carbon Epic it should blow my mind!
Whatever you get don't over think it and just enjoy it!
happy riding
Will chase up with supplier but some things may not be quite there yet.
Just snapped some carbon DH cranks at Thredbo tagging the back wheel on a jump on my DH rig. I landed level pedals with right foot forward, thought I'd snapped a pedal. Wasn't a big hit, my hard tail bike eats far worse at Red Hill running alloy cranks.
Shop in Thredbo has seen a few DH carbon cranks snap this summer.
I got lucky and rode out, others have stacked at Thredbo and also driven the carbon shards into their leg.
It seems that carbon DH bars are also still snapping, a few guys have landed hard on the front wheel, snapped the bars and messed themselves up according to the crew in Thredbo.
I ain't sure the most smoothest rider out there but I get the job done. I guess carbon aint for me. I've cracked aluminum stuff and there has always been a formidable sound, warning etc. Can anyone elaborate when carbon goes does it go with an unexpected bang. I know I'm digging up old skeletons but I'd really like to go the carbon thang, but still a bit apprehensive.
And no obvious signs of prior damage.
When carbon goes, it snaps and goes off with a bang. Carbon fibre has no give (0.1% yield before breakage?). It's a fundamental property of it. Metals, unless hardened have some give before they snap so you generally get some warning as they bend.
I'll admit to not being the smoothest rider, a quick google showed others are having similar problems too with failure landing jumps. Perhaps they only designed them for pedaling?
For me I'm interested longer term in carbon frames but not going near carbon bars, cranks, pedals, wheel sets, forks and stems for a while (even if my budget could permit it). I'd be interested to see if they start adding some Kevlar fabric into the lay up which has much better impact resistance and may prevent the snap in an instant thing going on.
A lay up with both Kevlar (toughness) and carbon fibre (stiffness) stopped us smashing kayaks up in NZ. Straight carbon would smash and be way harder to fix than plain fiberglass. The downside to Kevlar was if it did break we'd wear out our cutting disks trying to remove material to rebuild the kayak, but that just shows how much tougher Kevlar is.
Materials testing in the Uni engineering lab showed this too. Shock or impact load on a carbon part and it shatters, Kevlar no worries. That's even if carbon is stronger under a smooth load.
The way carbon is weaved and layered in most modern frames it is very strong.
It does however behave as a complete unit rather than separately joined parts and thus often fails as a ring.
A uniform ring usually fails in 2 places and so in the application to carbon bike frames this means catastrophic failure.
I've broken 2 alloy frames. One of these was a minor partial crack that produced a loud creak and thus revealed itself.
The other was a chainstay which produced a wobbly rear end like riding a real flat tyre. Again easily spotted.
I'd rather my bikes fail in these ways then suddenly break into 2 pieces.
The next development with composites is carbon mixed with titanium. Now that sounds very expen$ive! I wonder if it will make its way into the cycling world?
My introduction to carbon came via a set of FSA cranks and a seat post that came with a Al XC bike I picked up in 2005.
With a history of breaking bikes I was paranoid at first but thought what the heck I'll wait til they break before I replace them. The cranks got smacked on rocks, chipped, banged up and dropped numerous times. They outlasted 3 cracked frame (Replaced under warranty, and I can assure you the cracked metal top tube gave no gentle warning before going bang and dumping me on my face)
They impressed me so much I made the switch to full carbon frame in 2007.
They are still going strong, the seat post the only 27.2mm post I have never bent.
Carbon for me.
Looks like some are already using kevlar in construction, and the matting is already available.
This is Cyfac assembling a "custom" carbon fibre bike using an interesting combination of old-school tube construction and then wrapping the joints with carbon-kevlar matting over which is laid a final layer of carbon matting without kevlar, presumably so it can be sanded smooth for finishing
http://youtu.be/l9x2PjozPus
For me who is a bit of a hack I'm staying clear for now.
The material itself isn't bad, just a lot more to design and many more unknowns.
The core material makes a big difference as does the way the forces are transmitted from the aluminium insert where the pedals screw in to the crank.
For some reason (prior unseen internal damage, manufacturing defect etc) the metal insert twisted within the carbon shell. This sheared the foam core which then delaminated the rest of the foam core from the carbon shell. As soon as it got this far it blew apart.
A longer insert or stronger core material may have prevented this. There are many variables to get right and for us the outward appearance will just look the same.
I've seen K Force carbon cranks flog out (pedal insert), Cannondale cranks do the same thing. I've had a pair of carbon sunline bars let go, but that was a manufacturing fault, it cracked along a seam, it didn't fail and completely fall apart, but more just came loose in the stem and swung around. Managed to finish the ride, albeit riding light on the bars, warranty set was perfect (and visably different in it's construction internally). A mate had the same model bars completely snap, but they were a lot older and had seen some pretty serious work.
Even after seeing and experiencing this, I have no problem with using carbon parts and frames. I currently have a set of EC90 bars on my commuter, Edge bars on my XC bike, both bikes are a carbon frame. I also just sold a 2007 model carbon frame that was perfect after years of use. I also intend on getting a set of carbon rims for the XC bike eventually. One thing I won't use is carbon cranks, too much stress on such a small area that can't spread the dynamic loads. Especially considering you can get a tried and proven set if aluminium cranks that weigh much the same.
The thing is, a component won't always crack and collapse/snap in one ride, not including crash or impact damage. Whether it's aluminium or carbon, a rider should always inspect their bike and it's components very regularly. This way you are more than likely able to pick up on something and hopefully avoid a nasty injury. It doesn't always work, but it can only help.
Just got a deal I'm very happy with for replacement cranks in alloy or carbon.
Pretty good considering my rig is second hand.