"Cyclists as guinea pigs" - Critics see red as laws hand bikes pole position

All it is doing is formalising what most bike commuters do anyway... this is just another SMH beatup (as much as I prefer the SMH to the alternatives).

As far as safety is concerned, I feel a lot safer in that spot than mixed in the middle of traffic. It also sends a necessary message that we are valid road users.

do you seriously expect a cyclist to sit in traffic and not ride down the left of the cars or down the middle. What would be the point, it would be no faster than driving. Thats the funniest thing ive read for a long time.
As a cycle commuter i love nothing more than to ride past all of the drivers in there cages, it puts a smile on my face every morning.
I dont believe there would be any commuter who would sit in traffic and wait "there turn", it may be wrong but thats the way it is. It is not safe to stop behind the last car, the next car most probably wont see you and will clean you up.
These new laws are a waste of time IMO. Cyclist and commuters more so are going to do whatever it takes to make there lives safer, if they thing that a hook turn is safer or sitting in the middle of the lane or to the left of the lane is safer, thats what they will do. Personally i obey most fo the laws, some i dont as i feel that they endanger my life. I will do whats best for me. my 2c

Don

Before you claim something as illegal: http://www.cyclingpromotion.com.au/get-more-from...

It is NOT illegal for a cyclist to overtake on the left.

should comprehend what I wrote.

I'll repeat it because some people seem too busy jumping down others throats to have actually read what that person wrote.
"only to have that same cyclist break the law as they ride between lines of stationary traffic". I am aware that it is perfectly legal for a cyclist to pass on the left hand side of another vehicle (rule 141), I didn't say it wasn't. There is no exception to rule 142 for cyclists, giving them permission to pass on the right, in the same lane.

Matt, 2 things to say.
It would probably be appropriate for you learn a little more about people, in particular why they stopped road riding, before you start to tell them what they should or should not do.

Also, whilst I understand your logic behind your actions you should be wary of interpretations of rule 253 in the below document http://www.cyclingpromotion.com.au/images/storie... among others

Actually mate forget it, I don't want it to be construed as point scoring or a late and lame comment. Interesting to note though that when it suits you it seems OK to use this forum to personnaly slag people.

I'm quite capable of reading and interpreting your argument ta. Moving in front of a stationary vehicle does not constitute a traffic hazard, whether you be a bike or a person. That should be obvious now that the hook turn is law. If a car runs you over following that then they are clearly blind, need anger management, and shouldn't be on the road, they are the hazard.

Please feel free to tell us more of why you stopped road riding if it enlightens the debate. And if you can't take a bit of banter then don't post:

- things that are likely to provoke heated debate without a rock solid argument
- unfunny innuendo that everybody else thought of but then thought was too dumb to post

I wasn't having a go in the other post, just taking the piss, that you took it the wrong way isn't my problem, grow a set. I try not to have a go personally but neither am I shy of a decent argument where I think it's warranted.

This is starting to sound like another thread you started a while back...

Apologies Stuart for getting personal. I wrote the first post just after reading a story posted on ObservedTrials by a guy who's dad has just been killed by a car while riding, very emotional, not that that's an excuse.

Let's shut up and ride.

I'd be riding on the pavement! I have to agree that if someone is relatively lots slower then it would be pretty annoying to be held up like that, there are inconsiderate eejuts in/on all forms of transport, and we all need to live happily together on the road.

Cycle lanes has to be the answer IMHO, being the fattest country on the planet we should be doing everything possible to encourage riding to work.

Like you if I'm driving I get more pissed off through jealousy than at being held up, I honestly don't mind being held up by a bike though, trying to see the bigger picture and not discourage anyone who has the courage to get on a bike on Sydney's roads, no matter how slow they are. If we had proper cycling infrastructure we wouldn't even be talking about this.

Having said that it is legal, but the law as somebody famous once said can be an Ass... mind you if a cycling website can't be tolerant of other cyclists then what hope is there?

Personally I'm usually faster than the traffic I ride through anyway

Yeah... like, what's the hurry with these rush hour drivers? Eager to get to the next red light for another snooze?

Personally I can't understand why anyone would drive to their place of employment. OK, tradies that have to carry tools/materials around - fair enough, but office workers driving from Manly to the City? Durh! Maybe I'm lucky, or maybe I plan a little better... but only once did I have a job which required driving and that was almost 20 years ago in a tiny town which took 10 minutes to cross in rush hour.

I would love to see parking banned 24x7 on Military Road and one lane made dedicated for cyclists. I mean 1 x car lane (that is full of parking now) turned into bi-directional cycle lane with curb/railing either side.

I'd also love to see a number of suspension bridges (a'la the Millennium bridge in London) strung across middle harbour and other places. Lightweight walking/cycling bridges that cost peanuts to put up (when compared to rail/road bridges) and would make for wonderful exercise and travel routes for riders/walkers/joggers/etc.

Ooops... dreaming again, sorry

....Don't we know that its a dog eat dog world out there and anyone who invades MY space I WILL get angry at. Its all about ME! ME! ME! it's MY road when I drive it and it's MY road when I ride it! and someone gets in my way then I'll..... Even if I'm wearing lyrcra or getting out of a car to throttle them....

Disclaimer: Yes I drive and ride to work. Yes I get P^&%^& off at cyclists when they break the rules and I too have broken on occasion, I am really trying not to thou. When on my bike i have even told cyclists that they were doing the wrong thing

The road in Sydney are crap for cyclists and cars and its only going to get worse.

Everyone all has valid points lets just promote cycling more, lets not get on the merry go round of cyclists hating cars and cars hating cyclists lets put up with the current state that everything is in and work to make it better.

Free Brekky at Fleming Park, at the Gore Hill Freeway and Willoughby Road underpass on the 24th June for cyclists.

I'm getting on the wind trainer now ...

At the risk of popping my head above the parapet.... I agree with lorrie.

It's a very well known political tactic to drive wedges between otherwise compatible groups of people in order to divert attention from the real issues at hand.

This is a classic case of a wedge being driven between cyclists and car drivers. I don't see any need for an US versus Them debate because in many cases, they are us... and we are them!
I drive a car on the weekend, I ride offroad at the weekend, I get a bus 3 days midweek and I ride to work ( North Curl Curl to Wynyard) 2 days a week). What we need are safe, well designed cyclepaths which separate the vulnerable ( sometimes suicidal?) from the dangerous ( sometimes homicidal?). The cycling me could go faster and be much safer while the car driving me could go at the same speed while reserving my hostility for motorcyclists ( joking...)

It is true that Military Road is pretty dangerous, but if I didn't ride it, I would have to get the bus 5 days a week and restrict cycling to 1-2 hours at the weekend. Can't face the thought of doing that. For now I will stick to riding fairly defensively while taking some care to show a level of consideration to everyone else using the road.

At the risk of opening up a different can of worms...

I am from Glasgow originally, lived in London for 9 years and have lived in Sydney for 12 years. I have commuted primarily by bike in each place I have lived. Of these places, Sydney is by far the least safe for cycling for 2 reasons...

1. The road lanes here are insanely narrow ( for a country obbsessed with big cars), particularly the kerbside lane.

2. Sydneysiders are insanely competitive ( for a country which believes in 'a fair go for everyone'). In my opinion, people in cars don't care if you are holding them up or not. What really annoys them is that you are in front of them and going faster. This isn't confined to bicycles. Sydneysiders are the most ardent lane swappers I have ever seen. They will flit from one lane to the next and back again for their entire trip while averaging 15kmh. They don't do it to get to work quicker, they do it to get there one place ahead of the car / bike / bus which was originally in front of them! Believe me, London is ( was?) a much faster paced place than Sydney but the drivers were much less competitive...

Anyway... back on topic.... Demonising other road users does no one any good.

Good, safe cyclepaths help cyclists and motorists, especially when they are the same people!

CB

2 words sum up cycling on city streets for me, defensive & aggresive..they are all out to get you, if you think something else, you will get squished..bottom line, take the front row, make the cars wait, make them see you, its the only way they have to follow your rules.. they will not avoid you unless they have to.. ive had cars deliberately play cat and mouse with me trying to be funny with my life..do whatever you need to do to stay alive, hit the footpath, cut the lights if you need to..its a lot more safe if you dont go splat..its alot safer on a dh bike too lol..screw the drivers, they just get pissed cause they cant do anything about it, and that is the frustration in itself..just beware those that dont think they cant do anything about it, which are few and far between..but enough to give you some down time in old mate hospital, but one must out think them..anyone remember bmx bandits? come on people the city is just like a trail but with alot more cars and death and stuff got time? hit the path, drop the shops frontages, take the stairs, scare the old people, ride ride ride!

*end rant..

[Ed. is this the one?]

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Happiness is a warm shock.

All these one sided arguments disappear once you start respecting other road users and take the me and my right to do this or that out of the argument remember its not any ones right to use the road its a privilege.

There is already enough hate in the world road users come in all shapes and sizes they are all valid.

Try looking at cyclists in a new light say as a human being it might just be me on the road in front of you.

anti cycling. It should not be about that at all.

As Damien said, its about respect, but respect is a two way street.

If I respect the cyclist in front of me, then it pisses me off when that same cyclist doesn't respect me when I am in front of them. Right or wrong, I'm human. That is all my initial post was about. Respect. Both ways. It has absolutely nothing to do with me being a couple of minutes later to my destination. For me atleast it has everything to do with respect for each other as valid road users.

There is no joke or funny side to this discussion because, as Matt has pointed out, people do get killed.

I understand where the emotion in Matts initial response has come from, and as I have said to him there is absolutely no hard feelings or animosity over that. What I do have trouble understanding is that one of the reasons given for cycle commuting, used by several people already in this thread, is that it is faster than driving and yet the same people that use that arguement to justify their actions and attitude are the ones that are telling motorists so what if you're held up a bit, be patient. Again I stress that for me atleast it is not about being delayed. It is solely about a mutual respect for each other on our inadequate roads.

Maybe I'm reading this all wrong but it would seem that cycle commuters want motorists to respect the cyclists rites on the road. We are constantly told that they have equal rites. Actually that is flat out not true. As Matt's link clearly indicates, cylcists have greater rites on bitumen than motorists do. I don't think this is a bad thing at all, a cyclist certainly requires more protection than someone sitting in a tin can on wheels. Mistakes by either party have far greater consequences for a cyclist. Yet these cyclists show a blatant disregard for the same set of laws and that brings me back to the question of respect again.

None of this is intended as a personal attack on anyone here and I hope it doesn't come across that way. This is something that we should be able to discuss openly, without hostility, particularly on a cycling forum. A greater understanding of each others points of view can only be a good thing. Just because my opinion differs from the one another individual may have does not mean I am right and they are wrong, nor does it mean they are right and I am wrong. They are opinions that have been formed by the individual experiences we have all had and because of that will always be slightly different.

Anyway, enough ramblings from me.

mate i just dont think you can say cars should be equally "respected" on the roads, its more about the fact that drivers have the upper hand, they are not risking their lives in anywhere near the same manner, and therefore cyclists need special treatment..its that simple, the road is a f^&%ing dangerous place to ride, and cars need to be super careful, just as if a pedestrian were to run out in front of you not at a crossing..it may suck, but you are legally liable to not hit them! because your drivers license gives you the responsibility of avoiding live obstacles above all things no matter what the circumstances.. so although motorists have the upper hand, cyclists need to dictate where they are to sit at lights and rule the scenario, above all so motorists see them and are clearly aware of their intentions..
the worst car/bike mixes on the road i find is when the cyclists dont appear to know what they are doing, and dont dictate where they are going and where they want to be, and dont make for a confident straight line and wobble around and look fearful..possibly from all the car bullying that can take place, possibly because they are simply retarded behind the ol bars either way the cyclists need the upper respect or they will get squished..actually i dont know if respect is the word, they just need more care and attention then drivers do..
anyway at the end of the day, im saying cyclist shouldnt "respect" a motorist in front of them the same way a motorist "respects" a cyclist in front of them, because the motorist is not going to get squished by me ol mate aggressive red neck pissed of that they cant do a burn out of the lights cause a cyclist moved in front, or even grandma thelma that didnt notice the cyclist sitting directly behind them rolling back on the hill she took just a bit too long to lay down the accelerator after dropping the brake and squish... nope kudos to the rta appointed cycle rectangle designed to keep cyclists visible and un-sandwiched..hence why cyclists normally do it anyway..