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Ourimbah update
I rode Ourimbah XC on Saturday morning. Great ride. It has been shortened quite a bit. Down to about 8kms per lap.
To note - the drop-in before Jurasic Park has been cordoned off.
I had a bit of a run in with some 4wd drivers who thought the track would be and ideal place to test their 4wd mettle. I came flying down the firetrail (before Jurassic and the drop in) to find 6 or 7 vehicles stopped right in the middle of the fire road completely blocking the trail, with about 10 - 15 people spread across the trail trying to help one of these bogged vehicles. BLINK....... wtf. Extreme braking followed.
So i find a way to ride by, with focused stinkeye (doing nothing for MTB / 4wd relations....sorry everyone) and ride on to complete the rest of that lap thinking the whole time, i'll go back and take some photos to shame them on a forum such as this and perhaps send onto some authorities (NPWS) or even the local MTB club.
On the next lap they had parked across the top of the trail (just off red hill forest road) and looking pretty smug with themselves. Same thing again 10 - 15 people everywhere all over the singletrack and very similar to deer in headlights. I was only doing 10 - 15kms/hr. I made a comment as i rode by - thanking them all for ripping up the trail, perhaps they'd like to fix it back up.
Thanks to these kind people, the double trail is now deeply rutted and the bush on the edges wears the marks of their "3 point turns" and passing manouvers.
Anyone know if Ourimbah is an area that 4wd'ers can test their skills? Is it legal there?
Anyone else had similar run-ins there or anywhere else. Do i give them a bit of bar to the duco on the way past in future?
On a happier note: Kudos to the trail gnomes - Ourimbah never fails to please.
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a State forrest, so as far as I am aware they are well within their legal rights to drive on the fire roads .
Not cool that they are chewing it up ( di#k heads) but I would be careful of having a go at them as they might bite back.
I too noticed that the drop had been 'cordoned off'. However, the tape used to cordon it off said 'communications cable', and there was no communications cable in sight. There were no signs there as to who placed the tape and under what authority, so I just rode the drop anyway. The route down to the drop, however, was extremely muddy. I just walked that. I didn't want to endo. The drop itself was fine, but you won't want to ride down the rut which leads to it.
The area is NOT national park. This is why riding on singletrack is permitted. Drivers are welcome in state forests, provided they/we stick to defined tracks. This does not limit us/them to smoothly graded roads. If you fly down fire trail, you might hit something. Ourimbah is only a race track on race days.
Bar to the duco? These aren't Mosman 4wds. They won't care.
NPWS wouldn't care less. Sure, in theory, if the area were found to be very important for conservation, they might compulsory acquire it, but then the XC track would cease to exist.
As mentioned this is not national park and 4WDs and motos are welcome as long as they have rego etc.
Please don't bar the duco or start any kind of fracas with anyone from other user groups.
I mostly ride the trails at Menai which has regular use from these two user groups as well as the odd walker, jogger and even horses. I almost always take my dog. Menai is simply crown land and not national park therefore most users are welcome.
Creating tension between us and them is a very bad idea. Please just grin and bear it.
Yes they chop up the place however I've never had a problem with these guys. The 4WD folk in this location are well aware of mtb riders and so are the moto riders and none would want to cause an injury. And I've not experienced a blocked trail.
I don't have an immediate solution to your immediate dilemma however warfare is not it.
And a follow up - vandalism of other people's property isn't a mature way to settle a dispute, nor is it a mature way to express disapproval. For that matter, neither are snide remarks made whilst riding past. If you had actually talked to them, there would have been no need for this thread at all.
Actions tend to have consequences. Smashing people's cars whilst they are in a large group, and you are by yourself, in the middle of the bush is never a good idea. When you can only move slowly it is a worse idea.
If you don't heed our advice, and go out and start with the vandalism, I would make sure that you aren't the only one in the area. Otherwise, you may return to the carpark to find your car sporting some new dents and tyre marks.
Um, just a question, but how is this behaviour any better?
There was no communication cable. There were no signs from forestry that the trail was closed. It was not even Forestry NSW tape.
There was no indication as to whether there was a safety concern with the drop ) or whether the tape was left over from a race. There was no indication as to why the tape was there.
If I am to comply with an implicit instruction, the instruction either needs to be backed by authority, or there must be an ostensible independent reason for complying.
Here, neither were present. I can only imagine that the people who maintain the track, upon discovering the muddy rut, decided that a better route was available, and placed the tape there to warn people about the potential endo which I feared.
The rut which people normally ride down is unsustainably steep, and it is also possible that they placed the tape there so as to prevent riders from worstening the condition of the rut by locking up their back wheel as they brake.
Indeed, I had a moral obligation not to significantly erode the forest. This must be distinguished from a hypothetical obligation not to enter the area (Which I did not have). My obligation was fulfilled. I didn't ride down the damaged section (the drop itself was fine). Any threat to the fulfillment of this obligation would be from me driving my car to the top of the hill, not from anything I did on a bike.
And I though I was well versed in unnecessary usage ov big werds. Shut up and ride, smile at all, and don't sue anyone if you fall off. This is the law, end of thread
I know in a lot of instances when we put tape up it is often tape we have secured from various sources and may well have things written on it that does not relate to mountain biking. I know we have used tape with various company names on it with no relationship to what it is bunting, doesn't change the fact its bunted off.
I'd like to think that as a trail builder/maintainer if I put tape up to close a section, leaving an alternate line, that people will ride what we have bunted regardless of whether its a race or not, or they feel they are meeting the intent of why a section was taped off.
Can't speak for CCOMTB, but I know that we at HMBA have some explicit guidelines laid down by state forest for trail management that will sometimes mean lines will need to be temporarily closed. Maybe I am dreaming, but I would hope that if someone riding a mtb on our trails comes across something taped off, they would stay off.
No wonder we struggle to get legal single trail elsewhere.
Let me have a chance to redirect
I probably wouldn't bar the duco of the 4wds whilst riding by them, even though this would be very easy to do due to the narrowness of the trail and the gap that i had to ride to get past their trucks (it would elicit satifaction also), it was a comment to get reaction (and that it did).
I kept my comments to the 4wders short and succinct (partly due to the fact i was breathless) and this was on my second encounter with these kind "nature lovers" who seemed to have no concept of other people.
These weren't your run of the mill 4wd lovers tho. These were "the type" that had got themselves a 4wd for christmas and never had taken it offroad before. They were ripping up the track because they had no idea how to drive them properly - all loud pedal, no finesse.
I saw them over a period of 3 laps - that's around 1.5 hours and each time they were all spread all over the track with their wives, kids and dogs arranged in a manner to cause maximum disturbance to the environment and your humble mountain bike lover. I wasn't the only one riding that morning, there were lots of other riders. Each lap i rode past any new riders warming up for their first laps giving them a warning about them.
Imagine riding the Dam on a busy day and each lap on the downhill from the Parkway - the whole track was blocked by 6 4wds and 15 people and they stayed in the way for hours!
I thought alarm bells go off in the 4wders mind - "hey, this looks to be a mtb area, these people look annoyed and we appear to be wrecking the trail with our 4wds. Lets pack up and see if we can find somewhere else to drive. Until we get there: kids, wives and extra people stay in the cars. Perhaps next time before we go offroad we should do some more research. Sorry Mr MTB man, would you like a Jelly Snake"
My comments of "thanks for ripping up the trail, hope you plan to fix it up" were indeed sarcastic, but intended to outline my displeasure in their actions and a suggestion on how to rectify their shortcomings. I appologise to the few that feel that this may have damaged the fragile 4wd / mtb relationship but i'm sure you realise that one could be alot more imaginative and colourful in rebuking them.
In regards to comments of keeping speed to a minimum, how does one train for races without riding at pace? I was in control of the bike at all times, not riding recklessly and to stop i braked heavily (keeping skidding to a minimum). To get on the Hot Lap leaderboard, i have to ride fast don't I?
"I thought alarm bells go off in the 4wders mind - "hey, this looks to be a mtb area, these people look annoyed and we appear to be wrecking the trail with our 4wds. Lets pack up and see if we can find somewhere else to drive. Until we get there: kids, wives and extra people stay in the cars. Perhaps next time before we go offroad we should do some more research. Sorry Mr MTB man, would you like a Jelly Snake"
And maybe they were thinking "Hey why can't these chicken legged bike riders see that this is a 4x4 area and they are annoying us. Why can't they see that and pack up and go somewhere else. This is a popular 4x4 spot so do a bit of research before you come out next time"......
State Forests are there to share. There is room for all of us
Is it?
There was a fairly recent thread re access to land and accessibility to trails in the North Shore region which was commented on by one of the land council members (apologies if thats not particularly accurate). The general thrust of his comment was to turn people away from getting around manly Dam as quickly as possible that that the Hot Lap notion should be deterred.
As Manly Dam and Ourimbah are both shared environments, encouraging greater speeds DOES increase the risk of a possibly dangerous / painful encounter and the risk of restricted access. If you fly around the corner and hit or even have a close encounter with a hiker, dog walker etc, expect serious rammifications for the MTB community. Bottom line is, bugger the Hot Lap leader board (because its only purpose is ego massaging) and just concern yourself with having fun and enjoying the environment that we are fortunate to have access to.
However, lets momentarily suppose that it is important, and then refer to your last paragraph. Where would you suggest these 4wders go to practice their skills? If they have to increase their skills to enable them to be safer off road, then surely they need to go somewhere to practice (as do you for your hot lap practice).
And seeing as they are in their right to be there, maybe a far more productive approach would have been to stop, get off and introduce yourself and simply talk with them. Explain that its is a SHARED environment and that a good way for all to enjoy the area would be to (insert mutually beneficial solution here).
And regarding the MTB / 4wd relationship, its worth considering that there are many 4wd groups who take part in many environmental clean up days. In the eyes of the local authorities, they are seen as very helpful, land friendly people who dedicate their own time and money to helping clear out and regenerate many areas of bushland. Menai / Lucas Heights is a classic example of this. I have seen mountains of wrecked cars, tyres, shopping trollies and even old bikes dragged from Menai to help keep it clean. As I see it, in the eyes of the local council / land owners, thats probably a lot more contribution to the area that any mountain bikers. So it might eventually pay dividends to work with the 4wding community.
Finally, you can place a pretty strong bet that there will be a comment on a 4wd forum somewhere about some pratt on a mountain bike hurling abuse as he rode by.
I was riding Manly Dam recently, at the approach section just as you commence the first sniggle. You are approaching the first steps to launch off near the golf course. On said single trail, a walker was walking up the trail, and a gaggle of riders was riding in the normal direction. Low and behold, I almost ran the boy down on a blind corner (isn't it always the way?) but somehow slammed on the brakes and veered a bit more left to avoid him. I did come to a complete stop at or near his position.
I post this because I am not totally sure who was at fault in that encounter. I was riding at about 20km/h on a flat section of single trail. The walker was walking up towards oncoming riders. I appreciate that this is a shared trail, and that as a responsible rider, you must be able to slow down / miss / avoid any obstacles you come across.
Some food for thought... given how many of us use this trail.
(doh)
Unless he jumped out at you from behind a tree then if you hit him you're surely at fault.
Analogously if you were driving over a blind hill or round a blind corner and there happened to be a queue of traffic just over/round that you couldn't see and you rear ended it through going too fast then automatically you're at fault. Not food for thought just simple common sense...
Not a good look
This sure is a hot topic for some....
To clarify, The area in Question where this occured was on the main XC curcuit, to get there the 4wders had to drive over several small log barriers outlining the trail, bunting and past atleast 5 signs. Ourimbah is a shared area, but there is only one XC circuit that is raced and bunted.
I agree to the comments posted so far - in part. Discresion needs to be taken about travelling at higher speeds in shared areas.
I always slow down and say hi etc to hikers, walkers, horses etc
In this case, You have to say something to someone who has just trashed your limited resource. Some of you sound like you'd let this happen and not say anything because they have as much right to be there as you. Stand up for something you believe in. They ripped it up and i saw it, so i said something. I was a little sacastic but their actions leading up to that point were ignorant ,rude and i was ticked off. I didn't tell them to "F$%k off somewhere else" because that is rude (and i wasn't sure of their rights to be there).
Point taken - next time i'll try to be a little nicer or a little more chatty. I slowed to a walking pace each lap when i went past them and gave them right of way (warning other riders of there presence also) but on the third lap - i had enough of their rudeness.
In regards to hot laps, there are some people like to push themselves to go faster and faster with a timed result. You may not like it, but that's how competitive sport works. Perhaps without that aspect we'd all be doing something similar to hiking (it's not a competitive sport) but on bikes. Within reason, hot laps are a great motivation. If you don't like them, don't do them. It's your choice! Be considerate of others and the effects of your actions if you do!
At the end of the day, Discresion needs to be taken when living a society..
This thread is great. I'm really thankful that the majority of my mtb brethren are a community minded lot.
Most users of the bush for recreation will be responsible. At Menai I don't see a lot of rubbish and the 4WD vehicles stick to trails that are suitable for them. The motos do ride the single track and tear it up a bit but I wouldn't dare criticize them as I simply have no place to do so. And by no means is the damage catastrophic.
In Menai there are some good quality freeride type constructions that has been left in peace. Thankfully no holier than thou user group has decided to keep me and others safe buy tearing it down.
I've spent many rides having a break in a location where I know the 4WDs will be. They are quite fun to watch. I've even had the odd challenge such as 'You can't get up/down that' to which I respond 'Yes I can, just watch this'.
Fundamentally they are not a bad bunch, and with any subculture there is always the bad ones.
I'm all for standing up for one's rights and what is right. If camsters 4WDers went through bunting and were tearing up approved land set aside for constucted singletrack managed by a local mtb club then this is wrong and should be reported to the proper authorities beginning with the club in question, as I figure that there are arrangements in place between said club and the forest owner.
Don't let the poor behaviour of the few ruin your day and spoil your perception of the many...
the tape job could have been the club. The "drop" was cut out of the night race we had in early July up here as it was so muddy, it wasn't the best option for a race at night. A re-route was done to the right hand side of the trail before you get to the S's section just before the drop. It was probably left up after the race, next trail day is on October, that section might be one that gets attention.
Camster,
you said:
"In regards to hot laps, there are some people like to push themselves to go faster and faster with a timed result. You may not like it, but that's how competitive sport works. Perhaps without that aspect we'd all be doing something similar to hiking (it's not a competitive sport) but on bikes. Within reason, hot laps are a great motivation. If you don't like them, don't do them. It's your choice! Be considerate of others and the effects of your actions if you do!"
Its nothing to do with whether I like to go fast or record a lap faster than others or being competitive. Its got everything to do with using an appropriate location. Its to do with the fact that Manly Dam is a location that we MTBers are BLESSED to have. To my knowledge, it is one of only a few places locally that is geared for MTBers (as well as walkers) and is 100% legal.
I would ask you, at the area where the KIDS PLAYGROUND is (where you have to cross the narrow footbridge), do you ever slow down, or do you slam through there as fast as possible in order to set a PB? I assume that as a resposible rider you would entertain the idea that kids are pretty unpredictable and therefore could run out from anywhere at any time, and therefore ride at a suitable pace? As much as one might think the area is highly visible, I assure you that kids can easily be missed.
I'm not saying that you should pootle around the dam, but there are sections where we interact with other members of the public (next to the rugby / soccer pitches) and there are blind corners which if you were to take a racing line through or assume were clear, then we would greatly increase the risk of a collision. A "real" hot lap would only be an accurate reflection of conditioning and ability if your speed was simply flat out. If you were to slow down just a little bit for some sections (for the sake of safety), then the hot lap would be a moot point.
Some sections are given to being faster than others because they are more open and visibility is good. But there are others which are not.
I haven't ridden at Ourimbah, however I am led to believe that it is probably a more suitable location due to the slightly more open vegetation, and lesser chance of meeting with another user. Surely this is a more suitable place to organise a race or work on your times. If someone is in your way, then as much as it is annoying, its just the way it is.
This line: "Be considerate of others and the effects of your actions if you do!" is so apt, however are you suggesting that people go ahead and go as fast as possible and that they should expect to be accountable if they do hit someone? I really hope not!
I like to think that I am considerate of others. I reduce the risk of injuring other trail users by riding at a speed that suits the conditions. I ride in a manner so as to paint MTBers in a positive light (courteous, don't ride tracks when there is a risk or damage, slow for other trail users). I would also consider how my actions could have rammifications not just on non-riders, but my fellow MTBers. If I were to collide with someone, a child in particular, whilst riding the dam, and it was identified that my speed was OBSERVED to be too fast for the environment, then that paints a bad picture of MTBers in general. Thats simply public perception. There is also a very real risk that in order to avoid another similar incident, bikes would become banned. Thats no skin off the nose of MWCC, but it would greatly annoy literally thousands of riders.
I don't want to sound like a killjoy, I am simply stating that by encouraging people to go flat out, so increases risk of collision. The result of this is that someone can get hurt and MTB access may become restricted.
I had written a rather less eloquent version of Matt P's response when I saw "At the end of the day, Discresion needs to be taken when living a society..". I don't think we are disagreeing any more
One of the benefits of living in a city is that there are other people around. One of the responsibilities which comes with living in a city is that one cannot behave without regard to those people.
Unfortantely, in relation to the hot laps issue, we cannot make any convenient trail our training ground, no more than I can practise pistol shooting in the archery range at the local school, or practice rally driving on the Old Pacific Highway or Watagan Forest Road. (Both are legitimate competitive sports). Just as I would need to hire a track or a range, so too can the St Ives Showground loop be hired out for mountain bike use.
There are, however, so many safe alternatives for improving performance (such as road riding and riding technical sections at red hill) that such an expense is unnecessary. Mountainbiking is certainly one of the cheaper sports.
Little ditty, I'm afraid it would have been entirely your fault if there had been a collision
You did, however, manage to avoid one, and you should not feel disproportionate guilt!
Please don't think I'm being all holier than thou. I am human too, and do find myself pushing my limits excessively. Last year, something IDENTICAL to your situation happened to me. I skidded to a stop (on my front wheel) right next to the walker. It was totally my fault. I was just absorbed in the flow of the ride. It really woke me up to the fact that it is a shared trail. I still do go excessively fast sometimes. However, I am definately in the wrong. Sometimes I only realise after going around the corner 'if there had been someone standing there, we'd both be screwed'.
Noone is perfect - but hopefully we will all ride more safely day by day. Sometimes you don't consider certain factors until they hit you in the face. WHen I first got my Red Ps, I saw the 60km/h speed limit in Galston Gorge and thought 'BOOOOOYEAHHHHHH'. A little bit of thinking made me slow down after the first few corners.
I know everyone rockets around Manly Dam, but I don't think that makes it any better. It can be onerous indeed to make an independent assessment of risk; however, I believe it is obligatory. Negligent behaviour repeated is no less negligent. It can be very difficult to assert self control when doing that last downhill down manly dam. At least, I find it very difficult. I just think about what happened to the dog which ran into my spokes, mentally replace the dog with a child.
Perhaps the most prudential reason to go slowly around blind corners is that alluded to by Matt. The elderly like to walk around manly dam. The elderly like to write letters.
"The elderly like to walk around manly dam. The elderly like to write letters."
Brilliant response! I love it.
OKay, everyone slow down or the nannas will bust us and we'll have nowhere to ride.
Or we could steal all the post boxes, but that's gonna have to be a group effort.
Courtesy of OTN: http://www.observedtrials.net/vb/showthread.php?...