Maps on NoBMoB

It is pretty much common practice throughout the MTB community not to discuss the location of illegal trails

Are you saying that as long as you are in the know, then it's ok?

We've had this discussion before. You've been a member of this site for a while so surely you know this. Perhaps you're trying to wind someone up but people round here are pretty thick skinned so you'll have to try harder if that is your aim. Giving you the benefit of the doubt that isn't your motive - I have to ask, what then is your point?

It sounds like you want to be able to continue to build illegal trails in peace. It sounds like you think these trails, built on illegal sites belong to the person who built them and you don't want their location published so as not to have to share them with 'newbies' as you call them. It sounds like you don't want the public educating on the legal status of trails they will find in the bush. It therefore sounds like you're a very selfish individual who doesn't want others to enjoy the sport as you do.

Would that be a fair assessment? Please enlighten us if I've interpreted this incorrectly.

Why don't you campaign to get legal access to land and get legal trails built? That way a proper works schedule can be drawn up, like they have at Manly Dam and many state forests (Awaba, Ourimbah, Wingello, etc). That way many more people can help build trails, and as they say, many hands make light work. More importantly, that way many more people can enjoy them and 'newbies' can be introduced to the great sport of MTB riding without having to be told they have to break the law in order to experience the best trails out there.

It's a bit like the bank robber that runs out of the bank, gets rolled by some by-stander on the way to his getaway car, then complains to the cops "Hey, that guy stole my money!" Nice try sunshine.

I believe the goal of this site is to promote mountainbiking in general so sharing knowledge of trails wether they be legal or illegal is going to be par for the course. The more people out there riding the better so lets see more maps because the mountain biking needs a bigger profile to get more acceptance amongst the wider community.

Oh yea and you can stick your common practice local's only secretive trails attitude up your derailleur.

clearly states that several of the marked tracks (XC circuit, deep creek, etc) are illegal and links to the page that shows which ones and why they were "closed" by NPWS last year after the maps had already been in existence for awhile. Other tracks in the Oxford Falls map page are quite legal so I guess Rob could remove the offending ones from the maps if there was a compelling reason but what's the point when most users to this site can read for themselves which ones are off limits.

It's just that the sheer volume of riders is what gets them closed down.

Erm... no. The fact that they are illegal is what gets them closed down.

Or are you telling me that NPWS don't mind a few (define 'a few') riders in and around these trails? 'cos if that's the case lets start up a rota - everyone who's name begins 'A' may ride 1st of the month, 'B' on the 2nd and so on. Last few days of each month no-one rides as it's rehabilitation time.

[ Disclaimer for the stupid - the above paragraph is a joke! ]

This conversation is going to go no-where fast, because there's a fundamental difference in views here. Duncan here believes it's OK for him to break the law, but he doesn't want anyone else to because that will mean he's more likely to get caught. That's OK, Duncan, no worries. And I suppose we keep on paying for our groceries so the shops don't notice you stealing a few here and there? Or perhaps you want us to buy CDs and DVDs to keep the studios in business supplying you with illegal downloads? Hmmmm... wonder what would happen if everyone thought the way you do?

Maybe someone can tell me how advertising directions to your local track benefits the members of NOBMOB.

If you read my letter to Carmel Tebbutt you'll see why NoBMoB came about. This site isn't for the benefit of members (although the more you use it, the more you'll benefit), it's more for the benefit of the cycling community as a whole. Before we came along there were not decent online maps, and hopefully now there are. That is the point. We do note when trails are illegal and when they are not (to the best of our ability). If you choose to ride illegal trails knowing that they are then more fool you - but don't say you didn't know, because we pointed it out.

I like the fact that the site maps show where the illegal trails are, because now I know where I am not supposed to ride. Actually now everybody knows where they are not allowed to ride - no excuses.

The people who ride illegal trails would probably like them removed to either ease their conscience or too keep them secret so they don't become too popular and draw attention.

I prefer them to stay so I have knowledge of where I can and can't ride.

Sorry to labour the point because i think i'm with you anyway and this website is A+, but why do you include maps of illegal trails on here? I'm just curious as to your reasons, sorry if i've missed it (maybe it's what Paul said). Do you really think it reduces the number of people riding there or increases it?

Yes, you are correct when you say riding on a trail and contributing nothing to it's upkeep isn't good. Well - perhaps you don't have to contribute to the upkeep of that particular trail, but if you ride you should perform trail maintenance when you can - what goes around and all that. That's why we have maintenance days in our calendar and why I attend them.

I'd hardly call a sentence ending "... please do not ride:" promotion.

I care deeply about Oxford Falls and want to see trails there opened up legally - it was one of my favourite places to ride.

MWMTB is holding a clean up Australia Day site at Oxford Falls on 1st March. It's to show thew local residents that we do care. Everyone should sign up and help while we can still ride this site. Who knows it might even open a few doors. Further info to follow www.mwmtb.com

Rob, correct me if im mistaken but my interpretation when i look at maps of illegal trails is so i know where i cannot go and therefore have no risk of getting fined and my precious expensive bike confiscated. does that sum it up or is duncan actually smarter than he sounds?

This is my opinion, its raining so I made a rant:

Hidden trails are a romantic, immature and naive way to build trails. Whether it's a set of jumps, a DH line or a XC loop, the concept involves many separate unrelated small groups of people building separate very small trails in isolation. These mini environmental disasters are typically ridden by a few and are typically not maintained for even the mid term. Jump parks are a prime example. I can think of about 6 sets of jumps in a 2km radius of my house (Thornleigh) that are in some form of decay. Each was built by a completely separate cluster of about 3-5 'kids' who have moved on and left their piles of eroding jumps, pits and berms as a message to all that come across them them that "Cyclists do this to the bush". Instead it is better if those 4x6 groups of builders (hypothetically 24) did it legally and built a set of jumps in prominent public view that attracted another 24-50 people and they ended up with a mecca to their sport that was legal and used by far far FAR more.

Actually believing that their trail is hidden is complete ignorance. Even though signs/etiquette say "Keep to Tracks", council, NPWS, bushcare, greenies, flora and fauna study and other people are all tramping and bush-bashing off formal trails in their day to day activities, stumbling on these things all the time.

The shift from hidden trails to legal high visible trails is the way to go. 'Underground' sports/activities may lose their romantic feel when comercialised and popularised beyond the 'cool' clique stage, but the participation rates, public backing, and thus funding far surpasses any problems with load due to extra use and the problems associated with managing the varying skill levels etc.

Now people who ride Manly Dam may not agree so much with this as the erosion from load has resulted in construction of wheel chair friendly remediation sections. There are other ways, it is not load that is to blame, it is the original design, and it is the form of action take to correct the drainage symptom. Additionally, we probably all agree that the provision of more trail would spread the load. The message here is to cater for the load, don't blame it. The load is an indication of local demand.

The focus MUST be on applying resources (including trail building time, sweat and efforts) into LEGAL trails. In the mission of getting legal single track in Horsnby Shire we are going to have to offer to remediate the various little disasters our jumping buddies, FR and DH buddies left us. The damage done to the relationship between MTB'ers and other interest groups (inlcudng bushcare volunteers) will one day be healed.

Join the campaign for legal single track in Northern Sydney, register with HSMBA.

http://hsmba.info/

There seems to be some confusion here. At least I'm experiencing a little...
An illegal trail is rather different to an illegally constructed freeride aparatus. Quite often the aparatus will appear ( somewhat magically ) within a perfectly acceptable trail network. At present, and to my best knowledge, there is no such thing as a legal ramp, jump, double jump, table top or drop-off. The liability for the land owner is just too great. The concept of it being loads of fun to ride is all too often missed by those in power. And it's largely irrelevant, because it's no fun being sued when/if a rider stacks and/or the aparatus collapses. And they do collapse. Nothing can last forever, especially when built cheaply, in haste and in secret.
As far as I can tell, NOBMOB doesn't sanction the use of presently illegal trails. A few trails get their status changed from legal to illegal, and I notice that Rob is swift in pointing this out to us all. But Rob is here to provide us with this site, not hold our hand. Individuals need to satisfy themselves that where they choose to ride is acceptable.
Also, as is the nature of the wonderful state that is NSW, there are many grey areas. The revelation of good trails by NOBMOB people at a location were it's hard to obtain information relating to it's status is hardly cause for this site to be accused of endorsing illegal activity. Once again, individuals need to obtain their own information.
Illegally constructions within an otherwise acceptable trail network aren't actually revealed here. Photos may appear yet the exact location is still vague. Building them is illegal, riding them isn't. Those riding them do so at their own risk, in the same fashion a rider attempts a naturally occuring drop or obstacle.
So, in an effort to respond to those who believe that NOBMOB is deliberately encouraging the mtb public to ride trails that have been closed by NPWS or other forces, or to ride trails that have never been available to begin with, then I say this;
BULLSHIT.
NOBMOB is a social site which offers maps of perfectly legal trails which may or may not include trails that have since been closed, which may or may not include illegally built freeride type constructions and jumps, and may lead readers to locations where the trails legality is unknown and the onus is on the individual to source accurate details on it's ride status.
NOBMOB is a also a site where people can meet to race socially and/or competetively in a professionally managed event which can feature trails which are usually closed to riders. These routes often appear on NOBMOB maps, yet once again the route status is made clear.
There you have it. Pretty damn clear I reckon.