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Hot Laps - Suggestion
Do you think it would be a good idea to have a field in the Hot Laps section where the type/model/etc of bike can be indicated?
I'd like to know what hot laps are done on what bikes. I think it would be an interesting comparison.
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Can we have an EPO? [Y/N] option?
I'd actually like to have a 'My Equipment' section where you can post pictures of your bling and discuss it. And then you can just link into a blog (or hot lap in this case) which bling you were riding.
I doubt this would be much used though. I make notes on Garmin Connect about what bike I was riding and they say they will be introducing proper 'equipment' stuff soon. That's very useful as it lets you know how long it was since you changed your chain, lubed the BB, etc, etc. Well - when combined with a maintainence blog
Looking at some of the Manly Dam laps we should include what size engine your motor bike had. Clearly a human couldn't ride 25mins?
can i subtract time for how old my bike is?
Yeah, I reckon that gives people on crappy or heavy bikes some hope if they can see what someone else of a similar fitness level can do on a newer and lighter bike....Alternatively if someone on a crappy bike is doing fast laps then others on newer bikes probably need to work on their fitness/skill.
Rob what's new on the Hot Laps page and what was broken that required fixing? Seems to have lost a whole bunch of Dam times but not sure if I am missing something new on the page
If you click the header all the Dam times are there - http://nobmob.com/node/1963
Yeah... I just changed the Challenges page so top 10 on each is shown. All times are shown on the individual challenge pages.
Should have hot lap sections divided into before and after trail maintaince so that the times now being posted reflect the easier nature of the dam..., sad but true?
Remember what it was like 5+ years ago
For sure, lots of the changes in the last few years have made Manly Dam a faster circuit overall to complete, but the circuit is still essentially the same format.
I guess if that ever changes we'd have to have a "Manly Dam - New Circuit" or something, but until then people mostly realise that you didn't have to get any fitter over the last year perhaps to post a slightly better time. Although comparing yourself over the last couple months will be a fitness/technique only change, which is what most people are interested in.
my comment was supposed to be on Robs list of hot laps but anyway... i will post it again...
If you insist on having Hot Laps DESPITE the fact the rangers have SPECIFICALLY pointed out they DO NOT help our cause at all and that they are putting riders in a bad light then can't you at least put them somewhere private and call them something else?
I think they are supremely irresponsible and detrimental to mountain bike riding on shared trails
...and then there is the ego thing of why you feel the need to go on about it anyway, which is secondary to my main point.
You're right Christine - I dread the day this comes back to bite us all.
Might be safer to call to "personal bests" or something.
@christine: You do remember that Hot Laps is just one of the features that were requested by members of the site way back when? You can guarantee if it's removed then it will be requested again. Once again let me explain though:
For most, MTB riding is a nice, recreational pursuit.
For some, it's a sport, and to some of them, a very serious one. I'm not sure what their motives are, but even if we didn't have a section specifically for this then it would get discussed in other forum threads, on other online forums, on the trail, in person, etc, etc.
There is nothing illegal about trying to better oneself at a certain, known ride route. There is nothing illegal about comparing how one does on said route with one's peers.
In my opinion, trying to hide the fact that some people want to do this is even more damaging. To borrow a point from a recent conversation on trail advocacy I had: it would be like trying to pretend everyone will be happy with firetrail, or even XC single track when we all know DH and freeride dudes need their stuff too...
MTB riding is a very diverse pursuit. Celebrate the diversity I say!
P.S. For those who like to follow these topics, try:
http://nobmob.com/node/13371#comment-43313
http://nobmob.com/node/11422#comment-39261
http://nobmob.com/node/1756#comment-4005
I particularly like that last one... seems you were one of the people who wanted them in the first place! "what about my 'secret idea' which has been discussed with some of the others- a Hot Laps competition around Oxford Falls cross country..." Doh!
Doh indeed!
Christine, never say anything for fear of it biting you on the a*se.
Now we know why politicians can talk for hours and never actually say anything.
People should be allowed to change their minds in the light of new information.
So I think it's pretty much out of order hanging Christine for initially supporting the Hot Laps idea, and then changing her mind when the views of rangers became known.
Have you never changed your mind, Rob? I'd call that a learning disability.
My thoughts are:
* Change the name to "Personal Bests"
* Make it members only
with Hawkeye.
His thoughts are spot on regarding 'personal bests'.
You know what I agree with Christine on this one, well partly.
I don't like the idea of a hot lap on a shared use and heavily used tracks such as Manly dam, and I will not "race" a loop like this ever.
Hot laps for me are more about Hill climbs, a safe loop on the road (following road rules that is), or an endurance type ride eg. oaks up and back. It is on these types of challenges you can measure your improvement in terms of fitness.
Actually organized racing is where most/all other HOT laps should be done. It is in a controlled environment that promotes riding as fast as you can (safely of course). These types of events are where you can test your improvements of both fitness and bike handling skills.
For the record I have taken part in hot lap challenges in the past.
is there anyway Rob that the times posted could actually be "hidden", even from members until such a time as someone posts a time for that particular "hot lap"? You can see the "Hot Laps", now called "Personal bests", title page including the specific trails without being able to see the actual times, when you are logged in but only the times appear for a particular trail when you post your first time. This might also help remove some of the stigma that this is only for fit, fast people with ego's. That would give people the best of both worlds. It allows people to record their times and log them for comparison on both an improvement front and also a guide against other riders, without the possibility of other user groups using the information as an argument for why we should be banned from certain trails.
As for the changing minds, I'm sure we all do that. I remember times when most of us wouldn't think twice about riding single track with a NP but now many of us avoid so that we can be seen to be doing the right thing. Remember that everything you do while riding your bike, or driving around with a bike on your car/ute/etc, and everything we say on publicly accessible MTB forums reflects on the mountain bike community.
Just my thoughts
Of course one should be allowed to change their mind... not an issue.
Although I do have an issue with the same old topics being raised by the same old people when they know it will elicit the same old responses.
We could hide these from public, but again, this would be like admitting this sort of thing doesn't go on and cause more trouble in the end. When this eventually comes to light - and it will - we will look like a bunch of secretive people who tried to hide what goes on. It's just silly.
Look, it's a free world. If you don't like Hot Laps - then don't partake in them. How hard is that?
Call it personal bests and members only access
And the thing about personal bests is that they depend on a number of factors
I wanted to time myself on a lap yesterday to better my personal best time (not at the Dam)
Half way through the lap I encountered some guys coming the other way (I was heading up the hill)
I had to put it in the bushes, and then stop and chat
There goes my best time (and I was feeling good too) - oh well. Back to try another day
Sometimes a tree root will f me up. Oh well. Back to try another day
I guess my point is, that if you come across someone else on the trail that makes you slow down
Then it won't be your personal best time
I would hope that all the people who post their best times wouldn't be silly enough to run someone down or be totally rude to achieve their personal best time
It would be kind of like having a really nice bike - that you stole from somewhere
And for me, it certainly isn't an ego thing as this time will only be shared in light hearted conversation
However, if it was a competitive time at somewhere like the dam, then I probably would post it
But it still wouldn't be an ego thing really
It's just a personal best - an achievement that I guess you feel good about and want to share
And a way to gauge your progress amongst others
I don't really see anything wrong with that
it's just a bit of competitive fun that can be taken out of context by those with an agenda to discredit
i like the idea of being able to time myself against others around my local trails. I train hard and like to know how much fitter i'm getting. This includes a fast lap of the dam now and then. I'm completely aware that i'm travelling a little faster than other riders and if i come across one i'll slow right down and call the lap off and finish it at normal pace, unless i can pass safely on a firetrail or slow climb. I never think of doing a 'personal best ' lap during the busy times at the dam and usually keep them to twilight and mid week when it's really quiet! I'm riding a mountain bike for gods sake not a motorbike, i'm hardly going at 80kmh, out of control with no hope of stopping! Sorry, i'm doing this from my mobile so have limited text. I think we should keep the hot laps, just use a bit of common sense when doing them!
I think that sums it up perfectly....It's all about common sense.
Hot laps? whats wrong with that? it a lot better than the above.
This is all just because one of NPWS staff brought it up because he is clearly out of touch and does not understand the sport or the stopping power of a hydraulic brake.
Has anyone ever hit anyone at the dam, no, are there any records of anyone hitting anyone at the dam, no!
In fact i cant remember a single instance of a walker bike collision being reported in my riding years.
Like Rob said, its counter productive to hide aspects of our sport. As we need to be open and honest about every aspect of our legitimate sport and recreation.
It would be like boats in a sailing race hiding their times in fear of people thinking they are boating at irresponsible speeds and risking collisions with other boats.
People would say "thats absurd, its a sailing boat, its a sport and they want to better themselves and show others they are improving at the same time".
Mountain biking is the same, we don't have motors, we are a legitimate sport, and just because someone can keep a consistent speed through the entire trail as opposed to others reaching the same speed at various spots, it doesn't mean they are doing anything wrong.
It generally means that they are more skilled and fitter.
Some people can keep their momentum through the entire trail where as others can only keep that same momentum on certain sections. There is no more risk involved!
Seriously "hot Laps" it doesn't sound irresponsible at all.
"This is all just because one of NPWS staff brought it up because he is clearly out of touch and does not understand the sport or the stopping power of a hydraulic brake."
For me it has nothing to do with why we do it, or how we perceive the end result, or what we use this tool for. I voice my concerns because it is exactly about what I have quoted from you. It is about how people outside of this sport perceive it. That is all, nothing else. Regardless of what spin we put on it it is interpreted in an unfavourable way by those we have to deal with, just as this sites Red Hill trail map was used against MTB in general at the recent friends of the lagoon meeting.
Rob, you do raise a very valid point about the consequences of a "hidden" page being discovered at a later date. If only we could turn back time but alas, hindsight is a wonderful thing.
"It is about how people outside of this sport perceive it. That is all, nothing else. Regardless of what spin we put on it it is interpreted in an unfavourable way by those we have to deal with..."
Wouldn't you say then, that this is an opportunity to educate those 'people outside of this sport'? I mean, we can either hide away what is a legitimate part of riding, purely because of incorrect perceptions, or we can leave this out there and use it as a chance to show those with these incorrect perceptions the real truth behind this.
it's about managing perception.
At the moment they think we're all hoons and that we brag about how fast we can all go and frankly, that is what the title "hot laps" suggests. There's also the perception that we're promoting that kind of behaviour to fellow trail users. At the very least it lends itself to being misinterpreted that way in the minds of those who want to use it for political ammunition.
Taking it out of the public domain and keeping it between memberes deals with the "promotion" argument.
Calling it "personal bests" brings it back into line with what I understand to be the original intention, being one of marking how each of us is progressing with our own skill and fitness gains.
If it were, all that hard work you and others have put in over time would have nearly ever piece of sniggle in NP open to us by now.
I think that meeting the other night shows that no amount of education will enlighten people that have an agenda that doesn't align with ours. The big problem that then has is that they will go and preach their doctrine to whom ever will listen. Some will, some won't, but even if only a small percentage listen and take what has been said as truth then that is even more people that need to be educated. Remember that we are talking about some people that don't even know the difference between a "motorbike" and an mountain bike.
At the end of the day we all like to ride fast and push ourselves, for some that is much faster than I am capable and hats off too you for that. I'm not trying to be critical of anyone here but this struggle to get trails open to us seems hard enough as it is without giving further fuel to those that oppose what we want.
Understand your logic Rob, but there is also a perception issue relating to the site users that access and use the hot laps functionality. Are they using it to get / give valid performance feedback or is it being used / seen as a form of virtual racing (in a public place)? The latter could be seen as problematic from a number of perspectives. The comments posted with the times can indicate a number of user perceptions.
Ole mate Ken (from the Walkers Group) misused/misreported all the info/pics he took from NoBMoB in order to sensationalise the point he was trying to make. He and others like him, would have used any means possible to speak to the uninformed. I.e. talking animals
Is the solution to remove all traces of material that may be used in a negative light? I think not. Putting things in the dark/forcing things underground is not the way to go. Being open and honest allows both the MTB & non-MTB community to become informed and that the MTB community are an active mob that are interested in bringing about change in a diplomatic way. Education is key!
Pretending that certain aspects of our sport i.e. hot/cool/fast/steady/personal/lung-busting laps, don't exist does not mean that they won't happen. It's natural for ppl to want to engage in friendly competition. As many others have said, it's up to the individual to assess the conditions i.e. track, time of day, track congestion levels, state of bike components etc.
There have been many rides labelled as 'social' rides on some of the local trails whereby mid ride suddenly turn into smash fests, by the very people who organised the social ride.
There are MTB communities who prefer not to get involved in trail advocacy discussions and/or most of their content is protected/hidden from non-members. This certainly appeals to some and some people oscillate between the two. As with most things in life, the choice is yours.
"Ole mate Ken (from the Walkers Group) misused/misreported all the info/pics he took from NoBMoB in order to sensationalise the point he was trying to make. He and others like him, would have used any means possible to speak to the uninformed. I.e. talking animals"
that is the exact point I was trying to make.
Before todays discussion I was very much in the "hide it from view" camp but as I said earlier Rob has raised a very valid point about the possible consequences of a "hidden" page being found and now I understand his reluctance to take that action.
Sadly, whilst the choice is ours, how a third party perceives the actions of one mountain biker has a direct influence on the decisions they make that impact all mountain bikers.
Personally I don't see the point or the need for such a section but then I'm not a competitive person by nature and nor am I at a fitness level where improvements in fitness are reflected by small improvements in time, I'm far from ever being that fit. What I do know though is how the area manager of NPWS northern region "perceives" Nobmob's Hot Laps, because he has expressed it to me personally, and I will confirm that it,as Christine said, not favourable. How people choose to act on that information is their choice.
so why don't we counter by adding a category for "slow and environmental laps".
I did the dam in 2 hours and 27min flat.. collected 23 gel wrappers and saved the lives of 3 talking frogs, 36 gecko's and I ran over 17 rabbits (rabbits are the baddies right?) and handed out a bunch of pamphlets on the ecological benefits of switching to cloth nappies?
Given this sites popularity and the fact that people like our mate Ken ( hello Ken ) have no problem in missrepresenting the public content on this very site to our detriment, it maybe time to at least hide them?
Of course I'm biased because.. like I'm ever going to get anywhere near a 30 min lap of the freaking dam and as if I’d want my hot lap time of a low 40’s out in the public domain?
BTW; if your pro rabbit, no rabbits were harmed in the making of this post.
If we don't at least try and educate non-MTB riders about our pursuit then what will happen? Opponents of MTB will be free to spread the word that "MTB is bad" and no MTB rider will be there to counter that. Without anyone to tell the rider's side of the story one ill-informed person turns into 10 turns into 100, etc.
Sadly, it appears we have had many years of this happening on the Northern Beaches. I don't know why, but historically it seems there was no-one around to counter arguments, or they simply didn't have the time, energy or inclination. This seems to have lead to the current situation where many a local resident is anti-MTB, most likely due to nothing more than unfounded negative propaganda.
The point about "no amount of education will enlighten people" is incorrect. While it may be true that there are some people that are so stubborn that they will cling to their arguments no matter what, by countering their arguments with informed facts and a level head onlookers who might not yet have formed an opinion can at least see both sides, before deciding if they agree with the anit-MTB lobby or not. Hopefully they will see our side. Hopefully others that might not have done so before will do to and the tide can change.
However, if we force issues to be hidden, we are basically telling these people they have won, and letting them know if they slander MTB activities enough, all discussion (and in their mind, the actual participation) of said activities will all magically go away.
It's that thin end of the wedge... following in the progression of:
We don't bother to explain the friendly nature of Hot Laps - just force it underground.
We don't bother to explain that properly built single track is sustainable - we just don't talk about it and ride what we have in silence.
We don't bother to explain that riding a firetrail cannot possibly affect it given what they are built for (how can a 100kg rider and bike damage what tonnes of ranger 4WD and firetrucks do not)?
We... oh... all of a sudden we don't have any legal access because we haven't pointed out the merits of riding or brought them to the attention of the authorities, so the authorities forgot to cater for cycling in their plans or other documents. All because we didn't speak up and defend the sport we partake in with pride.
That is a very compelling argument Rob. Certainly has a few very valid points to ponder.
However my personal bias is against a public Hot Laps system, yes we need to educate others on MTB etc etc. However many people have a preconception or a bias about certain issues and no matter what we tell them they have or will make up their own minds about a particular issue. We always approach an issue from our own bias! for eg,
... If anyone bags specialized then I will have words with them
... We generally recommend the bike we ride to others
***People read what they want to read, we can distort statistics therefore how much more can others distort the idea of a Hot Laps system?***
Analogy
I drive an XR6 which is very bad for the environment, it does about 14L/100km. So if you look at the car I drive you could quite easily assume I dont care. Just look at it its a gas guzzler! But after chatting to me and working out why I have the car - an old company car and how often I drive it - no more than once or twice a week to work or even how hard I drive it - not hard. You can figure out that I commute to work to do my bit for the environment etc etc.
So...
What if someone looks at Hot Laps and sees this as an argument about speeding through the bush and doesn't see the fine print of how we don't reccomend any riding out of control and of our respect to others on the track, then we are in a bit of a quandry arn't we?
The more you are in the public's gaze the more care you need to take and the more people will distort the intended meaning of your words. The more you need to be above reproach. After all everyone edits their work????
Surely shouldn't we in the least post a disclaimer on the Hot Laps pages stating that no one should ride out of control, respect to others?? (I prefer more than this)
Lorrie
@Lorrie... you said shouldn't we have a disclaimer? Yes, and actually we do, it says:
See: http://nobmob.com/rides/hotlaps
All this talk of hot laps make me want to go and smash myself getting a 30 minute lap of the Dam
how fast you can ride the Dam , I just ride to keep the weight off & be healthy , Who are you running from ?
...and there are also lots of roadie / scumming sites with hot lap climbs eg bobbin head. Therefore I dont see what the problem is except where singletrack is shared with walkers (which is nowhere these days...) although perhaps the label hot laps could be changed as suggested.
There is a massive difference between what we write on this website and what people interpret it as. It's a common theme in marketing we need to understand the context of our comments from someone else's viewpoint, for eg, the people who do not like MTB'ers Put yourself in their shoes, how would they interpret some of these comments?? What message will they take home after reading this thread?
Its not about what WE think of our posts - its about what THEY think of what gets written.
With the increasing web visits to this website we are under an obligation to present MTB in the best light possible and wihout any chance for the non MTB'er to misinterpret/ misquote us. If we want to comment without getting misquoted do it somewhere else.
So back to the original question, "Is encouraging people to go faster on MTB singletrack good to be seen in the public?"
Rob, Thanks for pointing out the disclaimer. Good to see there is something to cover our butts
Lorrie
Andrew, this is a MTB forum and the content is based on what the forum community want to contribute. I have never written any post wondering on how randoms may interpret what I'm trying to say. I believe the majority of posts do present the MTB community is a positive light but no matter what is written if a group of people (or individuals for that matter) don't like what we engage in then no amount of sugar coating would change their opinion. As users of legal trails and tracks it is up to each individual to decide how fast or slow they wish to ride and for some recording this for whatever reason is their prerogative, having a place on a dedicated forum to do this is shouldn’t be the issue some are trying to make it and if your point is to try and remove this as "ammo" for other groups, they would just find something else to use.
@ Rob maybe a poll on what it's called - PB vs Hot Lap?
Can you also include a drop-down-box where the user can state the number of times they yell "Track" at somebody who dares to obstruct the objective.
Pretty sure (i.e positive) hot laps is going to stay as it is - the rangers disapproved the first time we met with them, and we explained what it was about. They are never going to like it but it's in the open and thats what it is.
Drop down box would be nice though for what bike etc, technically painful i think.