Manly Dam Dumbing Down

Well we did put a roll down on the B line of the first & second step down on in the Golf-course single track. You should note that it is the riders that a forcing the rangers to put these lines in as the track there is getting very wide as people search for easier lines - as little as two years ago there was only one line through there and until we did the work yesterday there was now 3! Both ramps would not affect a quickish good rider.

So yes we "dumbed it down" but if you were riding the right or left B line (which has been closed off) you really need to improve your riding before you complain about the track dumbing down.

Oh yeah on the second drop there is an improved A-line. Also some additional drainage put in and some of the dreaded metal ramps have been removed.

Thanks for the heads up Rob, these changes sound good as...

- Those metal ramps were annoying, good riddance!

- Making 'B' lines easier is good - the 'B' lines should be simple as can be IMHO - to allow newbie riders to lap the Dam comfortably while having fun.

- Leaving 'A' line challenges is a must though. When your skills improve there should be somewhere to try them out.

Sounds like the changes are fine and in keeping with this. Think we need to update some of the pictures of the lap though, they are looking a bit old by now.

Not 100% sure what you mean by the second drop though, sorry.

Is this between the first drop ( that had the yellow barricade next to it yesterday) and the first bit of boardwalk that you roll down?

Yes, there was a little drop between two rocks after the first drop - you probably would not have noticed this one it's probably only 20cm, but it is the sort of thing that requires a bit more care when riding the 'crosser. Take the line over the boulder just to the right here.

Here's what was done

If you think that the well constructed A and B lines are below your skill level maybe you could head over to Lizard Rock or the like, or better still volunteer some help on the trail days and put some input into the maintenance of the Dam track.
The track is for all standards to ride!

Launching the 19th hole would be cheating for a hot lap - you're cutting a corner

http://singlespeed.smugmug.com/gallery/3230574

There is a nice fun line to the right over a rock there, which takes the track away from going straight down the fall line and avoid most of the bog there. It would probably slow the speed of most people through that section (which sees a lot of dogs and walkers)

What would be awesome is if you could pile a few (read 'couple tonnes' ) hefty rocks down on that right hand side. You could leave the bog to dry out (or boardwalk it?) for 'B' line and walkers then use the natural drop plus these rocks to get a couple great drops over on the right.

I for one like the simplification of Manly Dam which has occured recently.
A. First, the fire tracks were graded.
B. Now, some lines have been made easier.

Why do I like this?

I like A because the grading may save life and property in the event of a fire.

I like B because I don't see Manly Dam as a technical track. It's a track which beginners can go to and do a quick loop to get familiar with the sport. There are a number of features which make it suitable for beginners:
- No overgrowing vegetation to slap them in the face
- Easy access
- Very close to civilisation
- Very popular - there will always be someone there to ride with them, or help them.

Even the writeup on this site, if I remember correctly, recommends it for beginners.

Yet, prior to the simplification, there were some very technical sections which could catch the beginners by surprise. A rocky, loose corner, perhaps, or a largish drop. While you may argue that these are part and parcel of mountain biking, I maintain that these don't belong at manly. The core value of Manly is that it provides a safe location for beginners to experiment with a new sport. There aren't any other easy tracks with both firetrail and singletrack in such a well populated, central location. ALlowing beginners to experiment is key to making mountainbiking a better recognised sport.

Whilst I would prefer the retention of challenging lines, and the addition of beelines to universal dumbing down, I prefer the dumbing down to having sections which beginners will have to walk.

If manly dam was teh only track in the region, no doubt I would be singing a different tune. However, when I want to play on technical sections, I go to Red Hill. When I want to have a pleasant ride with friends, I go to Manly Dam.

Now that I've given a general, waffling reply, I'll rephrase myself to respond exactly to your post:
"
The value of the Manly Dam track is its suitability for all standards of riding.
"

Ideally, yes, but realistically, no. It caters for a WIDE range of riding abilities, but by no means all standards. Many people would't feel challenged by the track at all. I myself am not challenged by it technically, but am challenged by it fitness wise. Catering for a wide range of riding ability is an admirable goal. However, when it proves impossible (where there is no room for separate lines for a. dad b. kids c. downhillers d. seasoned XC riders ), the lowest common denominator should be adopted. I see the technical sections in manly as a treat, rather than as a basis for the track. Thus, beelines are the way to go, till they can't be done, whereupon the track should be made easy.

"
Some manoeuvres need practicing and mastering creating a sense of achievement. If you choose not to attempt these, that is fine also. The track is continually being graded to the lowest common denominator, diminishing the sporting challenge and inherent value of the track.
"
Most cyclists don't ride weekly. Most cyclists would find a track like the Ourimbah XC track very technically challenging. Thus, they may see many more technical challenges on the track than you do.

The issue which the trail maintenance guys seem to be addressing is that , as it stands, it is very difficult for these beginners to NOT attempt the challenges without getting off and walking.

Getting off and walking, is, of course, very frustrating.

Even where beelines exist, they force beginners to choose between 'very hard' and 'extremely hard'. It seems to me that what the trail maintenance guys are attempting to do is to give the beginners more choice. This is a good thing. You can still ride most of the drops if you want. Some sections have been totally smoothed, but I've already covered why that is good.

Further, from an environmental perspective, the council would be irresponsible not to repair the trail. Like it or not, most challenges in a trail come from erosion. Look at red hill. But, from my observations, where a little bit of erosion is allowed to go unchecked, it soon turns into a whole lot of erosion. It would be irresponsible for the Council not let the track become like Red Hill, especially when it's near a dam where people swim, etc.

But yeah, challenging sections are good, but only where a beeline can be provided. Reckon if we go to a trail maintenance day we can convince them to put a seesaw on the A line of the 19th hole?

I completely agree with Arpit... very well put... erm... to a point. This track is probably only so popular with both newbies and 'experts' because of the 'A' and 'B' lines, please can we keep both? It's an ideal place for friends with varying levels to ride - neither should feel bad because one pushed the other too far, or conversely, that the one was held back by the other. And this is because of the A/B mix.

Then reading what jamess says really brought this to light. I didn't do much technical riding in the UK and when I first lapped the dam was amazed. When I first saw the rock stairs thought them impossible. Few laps later was doing the lot aside from the stairs and top of the boardwalk after - mainly because once you see your mates do these other sections you know it's possible and just go for it.

This is how we all learn. And this is why the dam is great for all. We love the dam, please don't change it too much.

in my opion the work the guys have done at the dam in the last few days is great,i rode there this morning and did two laps first lap with my partner who is new to mountain bikes and she took all the b lines and walked a few sections,while i was still able to take the a line including the 19th hole drop and wait for her to catch up,she had a great morning and liked this track as she could see were to get better on and i had a great ride first with her then a second flying lap on my own were the trail work didnt make any difference to the lines i took. overall its a great ride with something for eveyone.if all the people that are complaining about the dumbing down of the dam rode oxford falls or red hill more often then we wouldnt have to be trying to save these trails?

Depends on what sort of riding you like, James. You like the technical stuff, on rocks, with roll downs and drop offs? This is your place then. I take it you have read the trail review, and looked at some of the calendar ride / training day pictures for Red Hill??

If so, you should just go ahead and post a Red Hill ride that people can come along to. Car pool will also be possible, if that is needed. Just don't try to compete with any of the existing rides on the calendar, as anything that sounds interesting is sure to attract the crowd. We try and stay together if we can.

If your interested in the technical stuff, the Oxford Falls ride with Gaz on Sunday is sure to please. Plus you could meet a lot of the crazies (um, err, regulars).

That's a good point you make.

I wouldn't mind Manly Dam being a medium difficulty, or even a high difficulty track - provided there were easier equivalents in the region.

Back to your argument - it's a version of the Sorites paradox, really. How many times can you make the track easier before it ceases to be mountain biking? Obviously, it will cease to become mountainbiking at some stage, but the actual track maintenance step which turns it from mountainbiking to road riding is impossible to identify.

However, I maintain that Manly Dam isn't the Holy Grail of technical mountainbiking. Hell, it isn't even mountain biking in the literal sense. It's just a fun little dirt loop in the bush with some nice views.

I acknowledge that it is, however, somewhat valuable to mountain bikers. However, I am arguing that we should not overestimate it's value. Sure, simplification will cause the more advanced mountain bikers to have a little less fun. However, simplification, as I have noted, has many benefits, which I believe outweigh that detriment.

- Allows RFS to stop the whole place burning down
- Provides a place for beginners to enjoy single track without going into the wilderness
- Thus allowing beginners to experiment with the sport
- Thus allowing the sport to become bigger
- Thus Eliminating the 'mountain bikers are crazy adrenaline-junkie drop-out' stereotype
- Thus encouraging land managers to provide additional tracks.

Thus, I think simpler is better than harder.

You objected, referring to the Sorites paradox. Prima facie, it is a very strong argument indeed. However, it soon becomes apparent that the Sorites paradox is a linguistic, not a substantive difficulty. It exists in all areas of our lives. At what stage does a tablespoon become a heaping tablespoon? When exactly does someone change from rude to polite? Generous to selfish? When does safe driving turn to dangerous driving? These are all fuzzy distinctions, amenable to an analogy with the Sorites paradox. Yet, we as humans have do difficulty in drawing distinctions. WE don't fear sliding off the end of a scale. When a recipe tells us to use a tablespoon, not a heaping tablespoon, we don't agonize over grains. When an advert tells us not to drive dangerously, we aren't confused.

Common sense gets us through those situations, and common sense (and erosion) will prevent Manly Dam from becoming a concreted road ride. Common sense prevents the oft-feared floodgates from opening. Common sense doesn't mandate the inclusion of 40cm drops on a track which is well publicised as being suitable for beginners.

Thus, I've argued that simplicity is better than complexity in Manly Dam.

And it is that trade-off which you are objecting too. However, that trade-off is nowhere near as onerous as it may appear. This is because, trade-offs are a last resort. The trade-off must only be made in locations where A and B lines cannot be constructed.
Thus, most technical sections realistically will remain. However, in these situations, beginner riders will have a choice of whether to ride them, or ride another line - not a choice of whether to ride or hike-a-bike.

For reasons already explained, where separate lines cannot be constructed, I maintain that the lowest common denominator should prevail.

I've been trying to find out for quite a while, and my conclusion is - Noone.

At least, no single person. There are a whole bunch of lots there. I think some are owned by the council, some by private people, some by Landcom (developers), some by NSW Aboriginal Land Council, and some bits are crown land. It would be expensive to find out for sure. Well, not hugely, but quite tedious.

In addition to that, various people have rights over the land - easements etc.

There are a bunch of people who work on the jumps there. They are the main players in the area. Word on the street is that they destroyed old MTB tracks to reduce the MTB traffic in the area, in order to preserve their jumps.

Interestingly, there are (council) signs up in front of the jumps now which imply that riding them is illegal without permission (of the council)

In respect of the rutting - I suspect that you'd need more than a shovel! I think we can safely call Red Hill a lost cause insofar as trail maintenance goes. A few shovels can't exactly undo the damage continually caused by numberous motorised vehicles. Ever wondered how 4wd folly got its name?
If you were to smoothify the trail - yes, you'd need a dozer and a grader- and probably a backhoe with a rock breaking attachment too!
Besides, I love the area just like it is That said, if you've got a (real) 4wd (Not an rav4), I wouldn't say no to helping you tow some of the wrecked cars out of there.

Much of the area is under threat by developers. In this situation, the pen is mightier than the shovel.

If a trail maintenance day for unofficial tracks were to be organised, I propose that it be done at Oxford Falls. The XC loop is a little overgrown; the Road to Moab dangerously so (for those without sunnies), and the Road to Somewhere is almost unrideable.
I drove to oxford falls the other day, found I left my sunnies at home, and thus drove back home to collect them before I rode. I wouldn't have done that if I had left my helmet behind instead. Secaturs are much easier to use than a shovel too! The tracks aren't going to clear themselves, nomatter how many riders ride them. This is because the base of the plants is well away from the trail, but the long fronds and branches significantly overhang it.

"...There are a number of features which make it suitable for beginners:
- No overgrowing vegetation to slap them in the face
- Easy access
- Very close to civilisation
- Very popular - there will always be someone there to ride with them, or help them."

Been to Mt Stromlo? It has all these things yet still offers some of the best riding in the country to suit all levels from beginner to World Champions.

"Yet, prior to the simplification, there were some very technical sections which could catch the beginners by surprise. A rocky, loose corner, perhaps, or a largish drop. While you may argue that these are part and parcel of mountain biking,"

That's exacty right!! They are part of mtn biking, and why don't they belong at Manly? You go on to say "The core value of Manly is that it provides a safe location for beginners to experiment with a new sport. There aren't any other easy tracks with both firetrail and singletrack in such a well populated, central location."

This true, but why should anyone who isn't a beginner not be allowed to have a trail in a central location either? Some of us happen to live within 5 minutes ( some cases 5 seconds even!) from the Dam, should we be driven away from our local trail ( that we've ridden for years) simply because our riding level improves???

"Allowing beginners to experiment is key to making mountainbiking a better recognised sport." Mate, you're contradicting your own argument of taking away more challenging lines.

"Whilst I would prefer the retention of challenging lines, and the addition of beelines to universal dumbing down, I prefer the dumbing down to having sections which beginners will have to walk." If someone really wants to progress they will eventually get sick of walking stuff and will gradually build up to giving it a go.

"If manly dam was teh only track in the region, no doubt I would be singing a different tune." It is the only LEGAL track in the region, and we need to show it's sustainability as a draw card to many riders from different levels. This is what keeps it viable and encourages council funds towards maintaining and improving it.

I'm sure the council would be happy to poor all it's dollars into a mtn biking track that only suits 10% of mtn bikers...

"However, when I want to play on technical sections, I go to Red Hill. When I want to have a pleasant ride with friends, I go to Manly Dam." My friends ride well enough that when I want a pleasant ride with them we can enjoy Red Hill or The Dam. If I want a pleasant ride with my wife I do lap of Narrabeen Lakes.

"It caters for a WIDE range of riding abilities, but by no means all standards." What the hell does that mean???
"Many people would't feel challenged by the track at all." That depends on the challenege you're looking for. You say you're not challenged by it technically ( ahem), but are challenged by it fitness wise. So your are challenged by it! And once your fitness is up and your doing 30 minute laps, let's see you up it by including all the a-lines in too, now that would be a hot lap!

"Catering for a wide range of riding ability is an admirable goal. However, when it proves impossible (where there is no room for separate lines for a. dad b. kids c. downhillers d. seasoned XC riders ), the lowest common denominator should be adopted."

If that is the case, why the lowest, why not find a middle ground? Also, could you please point out where on The Dam this situation occurs?

"I see the technical sections in manly as a treat, rather than as a basis for the track. Thus, beelines are the way to go, till they can't be done, whereupon the track should be made easy." Do you not like treats then?? I know I do!

"Some manoeuvres need practicing and mastering creating a sense of achievement. If you choose not to attempt these, that is fine also. The track is continually being graded to the lowest common denominator, diminishing the sporting challenge and inherent value of the track." Ah, didn't the track builders point out that all the A-lines had been left??????

"Most cyclists don't ride weekly. Most cyclists would find a track like the Ourimbah XC track very technically challenging. Thus, they may see many more technical challenges on the track than you do." This is true. Also, when water gets below zero it freezes.

"The issue which the trail maintenance guys seem to be addressing is that , as it stands, it is very difficult for these beginners to NOT attempt the challenges without getting off and walking.

Getting off and walking, is, of course, very frustrating.

Even where beelines exist, they force beginners to choose between 'very hard' and 'extremely hard'. It seems to me that what the trail maintenance guys are attempting to do is to give the beginners more choice. This is a good thing. You can still ride most of the drops if you want. Some sections have been totally smoothed, but I've already covered why that is good."

So know you are turning around on your entire post and saying don't dumb it down to the lowest common denominator, leave it to suit everyone?

"Further, from an environmental perspective, the council would be irresponsible not to repair the trail. Like it or not, most challenges in a trail come from erosion. Look at red hill. But, from my observations, where a little bit of erosion is allowed to go unchecked, it soon turns into a whole lot of erosion. It would be irresponsible for the Council not let the track become like Red Hill, especially when it's near a dam where people swim, etc." This is true and the Council does maintain the trail. No one ever disputed that.

"But yeah, challenging sections are good, but only where a beeline can be provided. Reckon if we go to a trail maintenance day we can convince them to put a seesaw on the A line of the 19th hole?' No commment on this bit.

Look guys, the original thread here was whether Manly Dam had been completely dumbed down. Alchemist rsponded in an infomative way by explianing what work had been done, where, and why, and pointing out that all the challenging A-Lines had been left untouched. Case closed.

Generating further discussion is always a good thing, but come on....

I've held my silence on this one for way too long, mainly because last time we had a discussion about Manly Dam trail maintanence it slumped into a debate between an "old fart" and a "young fart" but this has gone on way too long.

I'm right beside you this time Jedi with your last post.

NO MANLY DAM SHOULDN'T BE DUMPED DOWN! Case closed, end of point.

If you want something easy for beginners go to Narabeen lake. If that's too easy go TH. What, you want easy single track? Then go to the sniggle near the power station at the top of Cascades. Don't like that, THEN BUY YOURSELF A F$%KING ROAD BIKE.

Why the hell don't we address the real issues here, you know, the cause rather than the sympton. Why because people are STUPID.

Why are maintenance days necessary? To address erosion. Pure and simple, should be no other reason unless we are talking about building new trails, but thats not a maintennce day is it? Why does Manly suffer so much from erosion. Two reasons, the weather, mainly water on the track, AND BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE F$%KING STUPID!! It should be noted here that point 2 makes the first point worse, if people stayed off wet trails they wouldn't erode anywhere near as quickly.

One of the basic "rules" of our sport should be "Stay on the track" Clearly this doesn't happen as many of the corners that were once on the Dam sniggle are now no longer or are much wider. If you're a newbie and you can't clear an obstacle, or you don't want to have a go at it then YOU SHOULD BE GETTING OFF AND WALKING OVER IT, NOT RIDING AROUND IT. Do this till you get the confidence to have a go. Do you think riders like Rennie and Hill got to where they are because people made the tracks easier? Hell no, they practiced. Problem I see is that stupidity is born of a couple of things, inbred, naivity, and "oh that doesn't mean me". News flash, yes it does. Let me ask how many people doing a "hot lap" around the dam have been going just that little bit too fast to make that tight corner on the track? What one tire near the base of that srub doesn't do much? Yeah and no single drop of water is responsible for the flood either. Ive seen seasoned riders who should know better intentionally ride around "boardwalk" to make the approach to an obstacle easier. Why do you think the boardwalk is there? Its to prevent erosion. STAY ON IT, be challenged by the difficult or GET OFF AND WALK OVER IT.

If people stayed on the track, and rode appropriately for the natural features found on that track then the only thing that would need to be addressed on maintenance days would be erosion caused by the weather.

So lets address the cause. PEOPLE ARE STUPID, see I'm calming down and not swearing as much. Oh no thats too hard. Bullsh%t.
Signage is whats missing at the Dam and that is all. There should be signage explaining the basic trail behaviour, as you find at places like Stromlow. There should be signs warning people of difficult terrain approaching, just like on a ski field. This will let people know, particulalry those that aren't familar with the trail, to take care instead of surprising them with a drop, rollover etc at the last minute, generally causing panic and sending them off into the bush around the obstacle. So where is it. Well lets go back to the point at hand. PEOPLE ARE F$%KING STUPID. What, a sign, no I don't need to read that and even if I do that doesn't mean me, surely.

Alright, so clearly people here are passionate about this. Well I wonder how many have actually taken the time to talk to the people that matter about it? How many have been to the trail days to lend a helping hand, and have their voices heard? How many have actually taken the effort to sign up to this http://www.warringah.nsw.gov.au/news_events/Talk... Yeah I thought so.

Thus ends my rant... for now.

Clearly this is a community authored site and the views expressed above are mine and not necessarily endorsed by the site moderators.

What's good to see here, is that there is plenty of passion about.

What's bad is that ranting at each other in this forum will achieve little, other than embarrassment when you come to read it later in a more relaxed mood.

May I suggest that we take this passion and write to the Council in support of the bike track round the dam and how you'd like to see it kept.

Also get along to some maintenance days, get on the TerraCare mailing list, write to your local MP, NPWS, etc, etc, etc.

Coffee shops at the Mermaid Pool...who needs em!

yeh i personally never liked manly dam, thought it was short and boring, so i never go...my 2 cents

This comment has been moved here.

Took some pics on the phone camera today and have uploaded them to the Manly Dam gallery here http://nobmob.com/node/2748

Reading all these posts a few things stand out - Erosion should be the focus as the track wasn't broken before winter, Signage makes sense but if The erosion was fixed then newbies wouldn't be stretchered out as much as they are now. Why did they fix that bit and not the 19th hole??? - I have heard of, helped others and know people who have come to grief at the 19TH due to erosion and when all is said and done we should be fixing the erosion traps to stop people getting injured as much as possible. Remember they closed the dam due to fear of litigation - if someone gets really badly hurt or worse then we might all end up having to ride somewhere else. See the bigger picture.

Erosion issues:
19th hole exposed root on rock roll off - CATCHING AND INJURING LOTS
Single track along the golf course - the big hole you drop in ( before the boardwalk bits and the lookout rock) and now people are going around
Down to the lab - the 2 step roll off seems to have got bigger perhaps a rock has gone missing - and entry into that section is rutted out and eroded as is the exit ( end of boradwalk)
Before this winter the track was in pretty good shape but has degenerated due to idiots riding in the rain and the rangers no longer sending out emails and puttingup closed signs.
Can you advise next fixing day - As I am there

Do 2 wrongs make a right if i go and fix it to how it was? lol