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Official trails to stop mountain bikers in their illegal tracks.
From the SMH.
Ben Cubby
October 3, 2011
MOUNTAIN bikers will be welcomed back into some state national parks under a government plan to stop illegal trails being cut.
Construction will start on a series of dedicated tracks in parks around Sydney in the next few weeks, including trails in Garigal National Park and Berowra Valley Regional Park on the north shore, the government has said.
The aim is to end illegal trail blazing, which has led to fines and track closures, and stop conflict between cyclists and conservationists who argue that national parks should be purely wilderness areas.
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Critics of mountain biking say a maze of illegal tracks can cause erosion and introduce invasive weeds. The hope is that providing proper trails in safe areas will halt illegal track building.
''It's part of our government's commitment to rethink the way we care for our parks and reserves by finding better, more relevant ways for people to enjoy, appreciate and look after these special places,'' the Environment Minister, Robyn Parker, said.
''It will provide for properly designed, properly rated, purpose-built trails and tracks in parks where it will be most appropriate environmentally.''
Mountain bikers made dozens of submissions and almost 1000 comments on last year's government discussion paper on the issue. ''Sydney has been starved of proper trails for too long,'' Mick Ross, of Australian Mountain Bike magazine and a keen rider, said.
''Making illegal trails has dropped off recently but there is still plenty of bad press about mountain bikers … generally mountain-bike riders are very respectful of the space they are [riding] in.''
The National Parks Association of NSW, which has vigorously opposed people building ad hoc trails through the bush, said it would not oppose mountain-bike riding in designated areas if it stopped illegal activity.
Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/environment/conservation/o...
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That's all to do with he new cycling strategy being launched state wide on October 15. The minister will be in Glenrock for the launch which is pretty cool for us.
That is a good win for GTA. Let NSW be envious of what is on offer up here.
If only we could get some of this enlightened thinking into the Lake Parramatta POM!
Unfortunately Laka Parra comes under the Parra local Govt Authority so they are out of loop when it comes these ideas.
P.O.R.C any one?
We are having the same issue with Newcastle Council as well. They seem to be very anti-mtb at the moment.
as posted over at BMORC, this whole "Preventing illegal trails" thing shits me.
The NP Sustainable Mountain Biking Strategy was a direct result of the tourism task force into increasing visitor numbers. The preventing illegal trail construction was a small side effect we used as a selling point not the overriding aim.
These articles make it sound like we have been "blazing trails" willy nilly through National parks and the Authorities have thrown their hands in the air and are going to provide us with trails and a last ditch attempt at saving the parks.
The Cycling Strategy is a very good result for us. These types of articles... not so much.
One has to note that despite lots of positive news about getting some authorised riding, and lots of people trying to discourage them, there are still people in our area at least (Sydney North) that continue to build and ride illegal trails on NPWS land.
Personally, I find this very sad.
Were now at the point where the few new illegal trails always appear in school holidays. You will never control that.
It's probably worth though differentiating between wholesale construction of illegal trails verse riding in preexisting trail corridors left from past uses (legal and illegal). I only say that because much of the previously illegal trail system is based upon trails that existed well before mtb did.
This is one of the reasons why, in the submissions I've made, I've been careful never to state that it will do away with illegal trail construction, only mitigate or discourage it. I've then gone on to state that it is vital to authorise and empower local trail groups to shut down new illegal trails as soon as they find them... I've dubbed it (rightly or wrongly) "the Rotorua model".
We'll never be able to stop it and it's unrealistic to think that it is possible. However, a legal trail network of sufficient quality and attractiveness will turn the unmanageable problem they have had with failed prohibition into a manageable one, so long as they apply a workable framework with user involvement and engagement. The boost to visitor numbers and appreciation of environmental values in the community will be more than worth it.
Rob, whenever 3 kids on bikes get together they will build a set of jumps, always have, always will.
Yes the kids are getting older these day but that just the way of the world. Kids, teenagers, young adults don't think properly. They see an old trail, "vacant" bit of land and think hey lets build our own trail. Building things is what humans do.
The Sustainable Cycling Strategy was never about preventing a plethora of illegal trail building. Saying otherwise is akin to advocating against speed limits on our road because a few morons continue to speed.
The strategy was never about illegal activity, it was about increasing visitation. I wish the article could have expressed that instead of painting us as a bunch of rebels who simply wore down the powers that be and made the cave into our demands.
@flynny. I know what you're saying about kids, but I can think of some specific trails in our locality that certainly were not built by kids. Or people that young for that matter.
To be honest, I am not too worried by whats in the newspaper article, the Strategy is far more important to me and it does give us all the chance to move forward.
Papers rarely report things without a bias in one particular direction, mtb's will be no different. The photo of Mick riding in the pouring rain is also disappointing in that it paints a picture of us riding in the rain, but its time to look forward and getting this strategy implemented on the ground.
We can't control the media, never will be able to, so I won't loose any sleep over the slant they take. I agree with Flynny, the intent of the Strategy wasn't solely to curb illegal trail building (although I am positive it is one of the desired outcomes).
At the time Glenrock kicked off though, one of the main intents of legalising the network was actually to try and stop the further proliferation of trails. I'd say that with the exception of the odd bit here and there, it has been largely successful.
It is great to see all our hard work paying off, big 3 year effort across the State.
For the record addressing unofficial trail construction has been a motivating factor for NPWS in the Sydney region (have numerous emails with NPWS and OEH over last 3 years talking about this during development of Discussion Paper etc) and while the article makes a big deal of this it is not inaccurate. Just a little brief on the other more positive aspects.
The strategy is also clear in that this is a 'whole of government' approach. There is already behind the scenes discussion with at least Warringah, Ku-ring-gai and Hornsby Councils. This is why I referenced the new Policy and Strategy in my Parramatta Lakes submission last week. Also offered to introduce them to key people.
Part of the reason for the whole of government approach is to get the appropriate trails within the right land uses. DH FR and DJ is still a hard sell in NP's. However this is not necessarily a hard rule.
The article is at least more positive than the previous one (discussion paper release) which simply flared up old arguments from green groups.
in that picture -but how old is it?-plus where is it at?-hopefully he would know better!!
is not illegal,and that trail section can handle wet weather riding.
If the trail can handle wet weather riding, you can ride it can you not?
Agree with Flynyys post
Yes you can ride in the rain, no its not illegal and yes a lot of trails can handle it. Thats not the point I was making.
The point I was making was that in a story painting a picture of us all having been out there in the bush with our trail blazing tools hacking through the scrub, the accompanying picture was a wet weather picture. It adds to any negative image being portrayed by the author and has the potential to allow anyone against mtb's to bring up wet weather trail destruction.
was replying to RobbieO's post
Rob,until there is an official DH alternative in Northern Sydney/beaches, unofficial DH trails will continue.
plus was only asking a question! not bagging Mick Ross
@nrthrnben be careful what you're implying there.
Aren't there DH trails at Oxford Falls or Red Hill or Warrimoo?
Then it's an hour to Ourimbah, or a bit more to Awaba to some top DH trails that can be shuttled (don't all DH riders always drive as they like to shuttle?).
Unofficial trails at Oxford Falls and Red Hill etc will continue until we get official trails.
Unfortunately some in NP's will also. OEH and NPWS understand this needs to be addressed, hence the 'whole of government' approach in strategy.
It's now up to us to talk with land managers to get official tracks, with Stategy as starting point. We focused on NPWS as starting point for their leadership role in land management.
I am chasing meeting with Red Hill land owners and some conversation has started with land councils (Oxy is on land council land as is much of Red Hill).
Warrimoo can't cope with all Sydney Norths riders. Obviously this trail also started as unofficial and is now quasi-official.
DH and FR need local trails as much as XC, AM and DJ for the same reasons as stated in our NobMob user group submissions. Most XC riders also drive to trail for same reasons as DHers. In Sydney at least most DH is not shuttled, same as many trails in NZ. Push up and hang out with mates while walking.
I can see where you are coming from but, if you look at my post, I was talking about official DH in Northern Sydney/Northern beaches,not central coast.
We have no official DH to my knowledge in Northern Sydney/Beaches, even warrimoo is not Official,its acknowledged but not official.
Oxy is unofficial and Freeride, Downhillers ride there, but the builders built it as a FR park.
Agree with Simons post
I think you should really be more careful with what you suggest more often Rob. You tend to use broad sweeping generalisations everytime anything pops up regarding a trail that isn't official/legal. And now it's;
(don't all DH riders always drive as they like to shuttle?).
No Rob, infact they don't. Do you drive your vehicle with bike on the back to ride when you ride the trails you enjoy built by others even though they are not legal or approved be it cross country, all mountain or any discipline? I don't know and wouldn't state that you do.
In Rob's defence he did pose that as a question and not a sweeping generalisation. Just saying
To answer the question though, no not all like to (or can shuttle). The humble push run is a pretty cool way of riding DH and for the younger crew it's the only alternative. You do get a different perspective of lines pushing back up the trail.
Can't do shuttles when you ride alone either.
Would be nice that some of these new trails can be accessed by train.
At the moment, choice are limited.
Back on topic, do we know where in Garigal National Park this trail is going to be built? How long it is, where it goes etc etc?
Would be very interested in seeing a something on a map
Thanks
There's more info including maps here
http://nobmob.com/node/31532
Actually, here has maps. Depending on your set up there's actually a few threads running on the latest news.
http://nobmob.com/node/31528
Why should "@nrthrnben be careful what you're implying there"? I don't get it, whats he implying?
Anyways, it's excellent a land manager with so much land is getting more involved.
Ben said, "until there is an official DH alternative in Northern Sydney/beaches, unofficial DH trails will continue"
Is an implication that DH is the only problem which is not true. XC/FR/DJ riders all build where they shouldn't.
P.S. On the shuttles comment - I'm glad some people noticed the question mark. I have no idea what the rest of that other reply was trying to say.
I was trying to suggest that it's quite typical of you shuffling what you don't understand into somewhere you won't have to deal with. It wasn't merely a question, it was a loaded question. You are already imlpying the answer, you should be in politics.
No, not ALL dh riders ALWAYS drive to where they ride so they can shuttle. We also do push runs, it is a very social aspect of the ride, we get to enjoy and appreciate the ride down, the push back up, the scenery, the wildlife and usual banter. DH riders also ride xc and all mountain and dirt jumps and pretty much most aspects of riding mtn bikes. Riding up also involves riding down, it is all fun and should all be catered to. Suggesting ALL DH riders ALWAYS DRIVE seems to be saying, well, why can't they just drive to Awaba, or Ourimbah or elsewhere? Why can't we ride on the northern beaches? Manly dam caters for one type of riding and it is fantastic that it is there and allowed to be ridden!
Other replies have suggested that until a legal alternative is presented, then illegal DH trails will continue. Of course they will. This seems to also upset you, and these "older" people that do build these trails also build and maintain a very large percentage of all the other trails riders, including you, enjoy on the northern beaches. So I find it interesting that you are so disappointed in these people building these trails for all to enjoy, the need and want is there, the trails will continue to be built.
I for one am disappointed by your holier than thou attitude towards other disciplines of mtn biking other than what is deemed acceptable by the local government, but hey, I guess big brother knows whats best for us all eh?
didnt really imply that downhill is the only problem.
"until there is an official DH alternative in Northern Sydney/beaches, unofficial DH trails will continue"
I was speaking specifically about DH trails, and unless the is an official DH alternative, Unofficial DH trails will continue.
XC being built, maybe a few short ones but most are old walking or moto tracks, DJ just about every town in the world with bikes is going to have unofficial DJ, if the council wants to make them official.. great, just dont ruin them up like the grove. FR, same issue as DH.
Its funny though if you think about it, all those builders out there building unofficial trails back in the day has made this sport (MTB) possible.
If it wasnt for them, we wouldnt have a sport or the numbers to actually advocate for new trails... Catch 22
Think of all the unofficial building back in the day that has helped cairns DH scene get to where it is today and now have legal DH trails, wouldnt it be great to have a interdiciplinary scene like that in sydney!
http://vimeo.com/29908993
See if you can spot Glen Jacobs in the above vid, what a legend!
Kinda the same for walking trails, most probably all started out as unofficial paths trailblazed through the bush, then others take the path, then more, then NPWS or the landowner makes an official walking trail coting millions of dollars.
So its hard to think negatively about guys that have and are making our sport possible, however i agree there are times and circumstances where unofficial building must stop for the benefit of official trails, kind of exactly like Glenrock right now
Speaking with Troy Holbrook today, he said that Parramatta Council are intending to be consistent with the NPWS Cycling Strategy, which I interpret to mean that they will consider offering legal trails to help prevent new illegal ones.
It may have been his personal view but at least it's a start.
By the way he said that we're up to about 50 submissions, with the majority of those pro-cyclist.
Let's keep those submissions or if you see a petition in a LBS, please put your name on it.
The deadline for submissions is Friday 4:30pm at the Council.
(Still finishing mine off)
Chris
@pantsman, please read this comment:
http://bmorc.com/node/31529#comment-99801
And you are right, everyone knows I get rather upset by anyone who builds illegal trails (see Unauthorised trail construction can only end badly).
You, in return, seem to get upset about my view on this and incorrectly assume I enjoy the fruits of illegal builder's labour. You think I have a "holier than thou attitude", but maybe that's because since we were approached by NPWS in April 2008 I haven't ridden anywhere they asked us not to. I haven't ridden on any of the 'new generation' of tracks that have popped up since then either.
I don't ride illegal trails because when I inevitably end up talking to politicians, or council staff, or the press, or NPWS (not through choice, but mainly because no-one else did this for a long time, thankfully that is no longer the case because such discussions drive you insane!) I don't want to have to lie about my riding habits. I don't want them to have ammunition to throw back at the MTB community with stuff like, "If this supposedly staunch advocate can't do the right thing then...". Other advocates have told me I'm missing out, but so be it.
Missing out I may be, but because of this attitude I'm committed to trying to making a change. I'm sure lots of other people are committed to that and want to see a legal, sustainable trail network too, but... if they have some secret, illegal network to fall back on...?
Finally, you are right again when you suggest it is all about politics. Stop and think about that for a minute would you?
We need to settle down and stop fighting between ourselves. The new Sustainable Cycling strategy is a big win. It doesn't completely rule out DH (or descending trails) but make room to approve them on a case by case basis if the proposed area is deemed suitable and that style of trail is in keeping with the park values.
Isn't that what we asked for? Not open slather, put a trail network of every sort of trail in every park.
Chill out peeps. Things are looking better for us. And a big thanks to all those who have toiled away behind the scenes to get s this far
well said flynny
Short piece on p.3 of today's Manly Daily with maps of the new tracks.
They obviously recognise there's significant interest out there in this matter. As we all know, if it's not in the daily its not worth reading about.
Did you notice the picture in the daily is of a DH rider?
http://manly-daily.whereilive.com.au/news/story/...
I must say they really do quality reporting. At least they didn't include a pic of a motorbike
Couldn't have said it any better myself,
There are new styles of DH trails that without a doubt suitable to national parks, and the "supporting structures" the strategy talks about, are not always needed if there are existing public bitumen or dirt roads for shuttles or fire trails to push up.
I think when most non DH riders think DH they think dangerous Gaps, that isnt really the case at all, that is more Freeride like Oxford falls.
DH trails can be sweet downhill flowing single trail that gets wider for fall zones, with berms, rock gardens, drop offs,tech features, long table tops, senders with safe landings, A, B, C lines and so on. These can all be built sustainably and can be built within national parks and with a good maintainance regime, will be no more obtrusive to the environment during construction or long term, than your average walking trail.
The article in the paper has this dude pulling a manual...
the DH pic is online only, print has an AM style bike, no big deal though
The strategy has had heaps of media up here. I did an interview for ABC Radio news yesterday and was then live on the afternoon drive program for 15mins.
All the feedback seems to be pretty positive as well.
I'm with flynny as well, the strategy is pretty much what we have been pushing for for a long time. Now we just need to implement it, but I think the NPWS are pretty motivated to do just that. Exciting times.
Do you have a link to the ABC interview?
Nope, can't find it anywhere. Only the witten piece which is linked on the GTA site.
will have a look
Did I miss it but did someone already point out the the article was misleading and there is no trail construction occurring yet on any of the northern Sydney sites, that they will only be building one to start with and they haven't worked out where that will be yet?
I'd strike off Bantry Bay. Why put a track in a location where there is already a track? Spread the love. Would NPWS really encourage MTB'ers to cross Wakehurst Parkway?
I'll bet 50:50 on the other two locations. Any takers? $2
In reply to the posts that you put here that where deleted.
Guys, we can understand your frustration however really there is no need for talk like that, lets keep this professional.
Not everyone's opinion is the same and we have to accept that on forums, its the general consensus that wins.
So if somebody says something that rubs you the wrong way, politely state your case otherwise and use clear sound reasoning to prove your point.
The people on the Advocacy front have to be careful about what they post on the WWW, as it is scrutinized by not just mountain bikers. So although we dont agree with some statements, we have to make allowances for the peoples understanding of the DH scene and/or their current situation in regards to advocacy.
It is generally known that some XC only riders dont understand the Downhill/Gravity riding scene.
What has to be realized is that for those that love and enjoy Gravity/DH, if we where to stop riding unofficial trails, there would be nowhere local to ride, and everyone that enjoys DH would basically have to give up the sport or drive 1hr+ just to ride.
Just like certain unofficial walking trails are a nescessity to some to enjoy the bush, So to are certain current DH trails even if unofficial a necessity and in order for them to be used and be sustainable they must be maintained by trail fairies
Without trail fairies back in the day, we wouldnt have trails and we wouldnt have MTB or the numbers to advocate for official Trails
We all myself included have to be very respectful of each others discipline and remember that most XC riders also enjoy DH, yes when they go up they come down, and thats generally their favorite part
If we respect each others discipline of MTB and advocate for all, we may very well end up with a MTB scene to rival Cairns (see vid posted above) or even NZ.
Should we start an official DH/Gravity advocacy thread for the Northern Beaches? We have many willing and motivated people on here that love the sport, lets get some official Gravity trails happening with good elevation (and not just an old pollution filled tip), and we can create a MTB scene on the beaches that we can ride officially and that all disciplines can be proud of!
Manly Dam has not got much single trail in it, so more is needed.
There are traffic lights just near the proposed Bantry Start/Finish, also a nice big carpark/toilets etc
I think that they should put a bike tunnel under the road where the Manly Dam loop hits wakehurst at the firetrail, animal lovers would love it as it would give the bigger animals a place to cross at night instead of getting run over
The proposal up at Monavale/Forest Way looks great also, again parking at terry hills BMX
@Noel - there are probably arguments for and against building a track where one exists. On the plus, perhaps the experience at a particular location is currently just, "OK", but with more trails could be great.
As you know, there are already rideable fire trails in all the proposed locations so adding some sniggle to compliment these makes sense.
NPWS and council must know that many riders currently cross the Parkway and that is unlikely to change, so imagine any planning would take into account creating a safer crossing point. You can bring this up at the meeting on the 29th