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Manly Dam unauthorised changes - STOP IT!!!!!
To the f**kwits who keep placing rocks on the a-lines at Manly DAM to dumb it that for ruining my ride today, FUCKING UP MY BIKE, costing me $500, and stopping me riding for the next 2 weeks while I get it fixed. If you can't ride a line get off your bike and walk. Just stop fucking up the trail for those who can ride it.
On the wakehurst parkway single trail, after the two switchbacks there are two lines; the line to the left has two x 2ft drops in short succession. The line to the right snakes through the two drops. After this it's the steep board walks that come out on the rock over looking the gold course.
Some joker decided to turn the 2nd drop into a roll down, with rocks coming right into the early landing zone; i.e. if speed is a bit slow. I've come into the drop zone with some other riders about to enter the b-line and some who had already gone through. Plenty of room but didn't get the chance to be at full speed and as such when I spotted the landing I realised there was a rock directly in the landing zone. Quick evasive turn to the left but that put me way off line on landing and set me on a lone heading directly for a tree..... hard on the brakes.... over the bars.... clipped out just before going over but have landed on my back wheel as I've come to the ground. Result was a bent read rim and a stuffed seat.
In my rage I've dismantled the roll down so if you're expecting it to be there ride the b-line!
Note that 19th hole has also had rocks moved so that the main line on final roll down looks a bit sketchy. I ended up taking a line over to the right.
To be honest I think there needs to be signs erected at certain stages; both to describe the lines but also to ask people not to alter the trail. I could have been seriously injured today and it's just not on!
Apart from that was a great ride, trail is nice and dry and I'm back under 40 minutes..... well with 5 minutes of rock throwing rage taking out of my time!
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dude.....relax. I'm sorry to hear about your rear wheel. Most importantly I'm also glad you didn't physically hurt yourself. Riding lines change all the time around Manly Dam. That's part of Mountain biking.
Warnings? ohhh Please, pretty please with sugar on top. We are not in America here.
I'll be going through there this arvo......If I stack it I'll eat my words. But sounds like you've done the hard work for us already. back to normal.
thanks for the heads up though.
My Manly Dam rant today is about the three imbeciles who walked down the bike only descent section from end of the firetrail, despite being told by at least one other MTBer that it was bikes only. What they don't seem to understand is its not just their safety that's the issue its riders' as well.
Also .. I noticed at least 5 guys riding anti clockwise today. 2 in the Parkway section near the trig marker and the others on the fire trail near the MVP School (not such a big deal). What's the general protocol in this situation.
It is Trail Care's view that these are unnecessary, and that Council is being unnecessarily cautious in limiting trail access to a single user group. There has been only one documented near miss between cyclists and other users in over ten years of record-keeping.
Naturally, if Council really *must* limit trail access to a single group, we'd prefer it was riders, but I think you'd be doing our cause more good by quietly ignoring walkers that appear on these trails, if not cheerfully greeting them with a smile.
In most cases they are locals who have lived in the area more than 20 years, who are used to bikes on the trail and are more than happy to co-exist with us. I suggest we should be happy to co-exist with them.
So long as they are not 3 abreast blocking the track as they walk (which the locals know not to do) I personally don't have a problem.
We want shared access to walking tracks in National Parks, do we not?
The trail can be ridden either way, and the signage riveted into the rocks at various locations around the circuit shows this. However, the clear convention is that during peak times the trail is ridden only in a clockwise direction.
This convention may be formalised in the new POM which is supposed to be issued this year - I can't remember what they're doing with that.
I certainly expect riders going counter-clockwise to yield to me, and if I'm taking a cheeky shortcut back home from the hydro lab up the hill, I am careful to keep an ear out for approaching riders and get right off the track to let them past.
I think there's an argument for allowing contra-flow riding during off-peak times at the present, however that may change as we get the opportunity make the trail IMBA compliant. Berm and switchback construction is direction-specific and riding in the opposite direction causes damage.
My concern is purely the safety issue, however I agree with all the points you make, definitely can share the trails.
My personal view is the safety issue is a beat-up which *some* (anti-mtb) staff tried to use in February 2010 to effectively shut mountain bikers out of the park by denying us access to the parts we value most. The "liability" hot-button, if you will.
http://www.pushon.com.au/downloads/PO_3403.pdf
Little did Rik Hart know that he was doing us a huge favour: the secret is now out, mountain biking is well and truly mainstream, and represents a high value low impact activity that represents outstanding value-for-money for Council's unstructured recreation spend.
Yes trails change and yes that is part of the challenge of Mountain Biking. Manly Dam is notorious for changing due to weather conditions as the last 12 months have shown. I have no issue stacking due to pushing it a bit hard on an ever changing trail.... and have done so on more than one occasion.
What I am annoyed at is track conditions changing due to people who want to make the A-LINE easier to ride. This occurs at three main locations around Manly Dam and in all three cases there is a suitable B-Line for novice riders. 19th Hole, the double drop at Wakehurst Parkway and the steps at Wakehurst Parkway. I can only assume that some riders see the A-Line as "unridable" and therefore "fix it". But while they can now ride the A-Line and brag to their mates they dumb it down to an extent where it is less of a challenge for other riders.
Regarding signage Manly Dam is used by a large user group, many of whom assume it is a beginners trail. If any trail warrants "Black, Blue, Green" signage, it's Manly Dam. Perhaps this will also stop the trail "dumbers" as they will realise that the line is as it is meant to be.
How about some comments that add value to the conversation next time!
The key problem at the moment is that riders are now not expecting to see walkers. However any encounter should still be friendly. Many walkers live nearby and have walked there for years.
Previously there was no real issue with shared use. Council do however see it as a risk, the signs for rider only are more so in the event of an incident fingers can be pointed.
Riding within your braking limits for the distance of clear sight is still recommended for walkers, fallen riders and wild life. Manly Dam is not a race track.
They frustrate me also and I have stacked in places before too.
Nothing worse than landing a back wheel on a pile of rocks and getting pitched over the front or having your lines ruined by some built up roller in the way of your line.
Unfortunately there are many people that think this is trail building. It was also one of the things that helped get riders kicked out of National Parks in 2008. All the unsightly piles of rocks stacked up under rock platforms for every possible line. Advanced lines weren't such a big deal.
However MD is promoted as a beginner trail and there are plenty of things which catch people out. Riding culture is changing and getting off and walking unfortunately seems to be getting less common. Partly I think as other trails have come along built to IMBA beginner standards.
The culture and expectation is also changing now mountain biking is main stream. I now hear comments like "it needs some trail work as I can't even roll it on my 29er and the shop said they roll over everything". What we need is a skills area so some beginners stop rolling drops.
Hopefully if WAC gets up we will have a 2km beginner loop with a skills area so people can build enough skills to ride the Dam.
We also need to document what each section should look like and get signage.
I'm meeting Council this week about Manly Dam, will pass on feedback on this and report back to NobMob.
Until we can get some IMBA signage up, I'm thinking some unofficial signage along the lines of "<-A" and "B->"
or, for a bit of humour, a Superman symbol for the A line and a chicken symbol for the B line might be the go.
Like:
or
Whaddayareckon?
And I can think of one for trail modifiers but will keep it to myself
someone needs to slow down and let the riders in front clear the area, or were perhaps having a look at me moment. I ride the A-line. Ouch, pride dented.
Just sayin mind you.
Maybe if you like bigger drops should should progress to Red Hill or Oxy. Manly Dam is what it is.
"Some joker decided to turn the 2nd drop into a roll down, with rocks coming right into the early landing zone; i.e. if speed is a bit slow. I've come into the drop zone with some other riders about to enter the b-line and some who had already gone through. Plenty of room but didn't get the chance to be at full speed and as such when I spotted the landing I realised there was a rock directly in the landing zone. Quick evasive turn to the left but that put me way off line on landing and set me on a lone heading directly for a tree..... hard on the brakes.... over the bars.... clipped out just before going over but have landed on my back wheel as I've come to the ground. Result was a bent read rim and a stuffed seat."
Given the sign at the Wakehurst entry states the track shall be ridden in a clockwise direction, and this post dates the various arrows, I'd say it's already formalised.
However, as you say there is often need/want to ride in the opposite direction. I think most would agree this is fine if the counter-clockwisers yield in the narrow/techy areas.
Nah it ain't pride.... I've had plenty of stupid stacks in my time to dent my pride.... I'm riding clip-less and we all remember the epic failures that brings the first couple of times out.....most of the time the stacks are part of the fun.
My issue is with people changing the track conditions to make it easier for them but ruining others enjoyment; either through a major off like I had or just general annoyance that a challenging part of the trail has been dumbed down.
What makes Manly Dam so good is it has a bit of everything; fast fire-trial, challenging climbs, technical sections and one or two small drops. That's what Manly Dam is and I take exception with people changing it, particular sections where there is an A line and a B line, just so they can ride the A line.
I think I have been riding the wrong Dam because I cant find any A lines..........
MD must be one of the most heavily used MTB tracks in Sydney, if not the country. Of course it's going to change, and people do work on it, moving rocks, digging drainage channels when it's waterlogged. Some of those changes you'll like, some you won't. Either way, a bit of the unexpected is a challenge to your skills, and if you can't handle them either you're going too fast for your skillset, and/or you're way too highly strung. Daniel, maybe you need to slow down, or I hope next time you're out you don't come screaming around a bend and find me unexpectedly in your way.
As for people walking on the track, no matter which way they're going, it sounds like some of us need to chill out a bit. I thought MTB'ers prided themselves on being a friendly bunch. Whether you think they're in the right or not, just slow down a bit, give them a friendly greeting, and get on with it. And maybe then you can hope for the same next time you're riding somewhere that maybe you shouldn't; like on some NP singletrack, or on a footpath, or when treating a red light like a give way sign on your way home.
Then Strava came along now its "GTFO of my way or you wreck my strava segment!"
Yea there is a time & place for Strava at Manly Dam too. And its not at 9 am on a Sat or Sunday morning. LOL.
yesterday I did some serious riding around MD & the cascades. MD is in great shape. Those rocks had defenately moved. Can't quite figure out where exactly they were in the first place.
Squarewheels said it very well I couln't agree more. But having said that, I meant no disrespect to Daniel. Weve all stacked it around MD I've been extreemly lucky to only come away with cracked ribs cracked helmets.
As far as courtesy goes, this morning I took around 5 13 year olds plus a few dads. Staying at the rear warning the fast riders comming through. Most riders acknowlege when you shout out theres 5 kids up ahead. even just a wave is great. Occasionally they just race past & you hope that these boys hear them comming & move over. Generally I find MTBikers very friendly. I could start ranting & raving about road riders.....
Removed
i don't know y the dam is used as a race track but if someone called track on me at the dam & I was moving above my averaged speed there I would stop across the track , there are too many novices out there to go tearing it up like it is your last lap in a race . You want to race join a club & punch out fast times or do events where everybody is insured & the trails don't get changed to make things easier for the novice riders . My 2 bobs worth
But Hold on. When I'm on a strava Run, that gives me automatic right of way. Especially if Im on a CF 29er as well as wearing my full team kit.
Thats just so unreasonable of you.
Yeah I was absolutely angry and with the adrenaline pumping got a bit emotional. But let's be clear... I was angry at the unauthorised, man made trail modifications, not at any person on the trail. I'd never have a go at a slower rider or person walking on the trail. I also don't particularly care when I fall off and even a bit of bike damage now and then is part of the game. The anger came as the fall and damage were caused, in part, by someone who decided to dumb down the trail for their own selfish purposes.
As for comments re Strava, racetrack, etc some people just like statistics. I rode Manly Dam in around 40 minutes that day. That's not all that quick! What I like to do though is look at my times, by segment to figure out how I'm doing. Some will say "just get out there and enjoy it"; this fails to consider that different people enjoy different things.
Hope to see you all on the trails again some time soon.
Daniel, didn't you start this topic by saying that, after you fell off, you spent 5 minutes modifying the trail? What makes the other person's rock placement a heinous crime while yours is a virtuous deed? Changing it to suit your own version of "original" or "challenging" or "correct", or whatever you might call it, might be exactly what makes someone else crash, and leaves them ranting and raving.
That is an interesting view. From my side, if I was belting along as fast as my short and stubby legs would let me, and someone called track or asked to pass in any other way, I would just follow normal etiquette and move over as soon as SAFELY possible. I would not want to ruin someone else’s ride just because they may be fitter than me, stronger than me, or a more capable technical rider. You are judging someone "tearing it up" by whether you are moving at "above your average speed". The reality is that the dam gets used by people who do a 50 minute lap and those that do a sub-30 minute lap and each rider may be right at the edge of his or her capability. If we all just try and respect the others right to enjoy the track, and ask politely/move over when safe, it makes for a much more pleasant environment.
My 2 bobs worth!
The key thing here is that while we have one trail with massively high usage that supposedly caters for all there will be unofficial changes made.
Documenting what is official is itself a task that has never been completed or even initiated.
The first time I rode the Dam the 19th hole the roll downs didn't exist either. You either had to drop it or walk. The drop was easier though as we have lost nearly 12" in dirt since then.
For now we need to accept the consequences of committing to situations where if something has changed we are going to stack OR we all start riding with a margin of error.
Blaming others for our own decisions to go blind over a technical feature doesn't stack up in any situation.
I am still with you 100% that track changes a very frustrating. It would be great to get to a point where this doesn't happen. It is however much harder in our terrain where you don't even need a shovel and can move a plentiful supply of rocks around.
From TrailCare's perspective the changes paint a good picture of areas that are catching people out and also where more advanced riders need some challenge.
I know this section of track well (if I'm guessing right) and normally take the same line as you, I also stuffed my back landing heavy here while not being cautious enough after the BBQ patio went in. This went from a nice descending lander to a slight uphill slam when landing long after the first small drop.
If you want to do something constructive why don't you initiate things by posting up photos of this section and an others showing preferred beginner and more advanced lines?
Everyone can comment and we can get this info to Council?
Hi Chitts, not going into bat or anything, but I take Smiley's point. "Track" is a great tool in a race. You are on the limit, trying to win a sheep station and don't have the time or breath to ask politely.
On a social ride, no matter whether you are racing a strava segment, bird watching or just tooling along on your own on a sub 30.. you ain't racing. Have the decency to say to the slower rider "when you're ready mate?" or something similar. Simply calling track outside a race situation is likely to get the other persons temper up.
We all like to say how friendly MTBers are. Lets act it.
This is assuming the other rider even knows what you are on about.
Only around 5% of riders race. Far less are current members of clubs.
"passing on your right" etc is far clearer and even if there isn't room usually creates it. Followed by a "thank you."
I can do it under 40 minutes too ,but I go there because it is somewhere different to ride & if I end up meeting another rider in front of me there I just coast behind them & tell them how well they are doing then when the time is right they will pull up or pull over then I will pass . It is because I been a track sweep / track marshall for so long & ridden on the trails with so many great riders during races I go out there too keep my cardio going not too go agro on other riders ..
I can see both sides of the coin here but let's be serious about this, everyone rides for different reasons. Fitness, fun, the thrill, uphills, downhills, technical, the drops. Everyone has different levels of fitness and ability….. For any one of you to sit back and tell someone they are riding the trail in an incorrect manner is just ridiculous. My race pace could be your cruising so what makes your pace acceptable? Ride it how you see fit, but most of all, have fun doing it!!!!
I know your going to tell me that I am being a hypocrite in saying that I agree with the OP as the trail doesn’t belong to me and who am I to be unhappy at someone for changing the trail, but this part of the trail to me is one of the more enjoying parts of the trail. Yes I fly through there and fly off the drops, and rip down the rolldowns, but that’s how I enjoy riding the trail, not my problem you bought a 4 inch XC race bike. I don’t feel like I am out of control and to be honest to a decent rider I am probably quite slow. I didn’t buy a 6” travel bike because I want to ride slowly when the land points in a downward direction either. There is no reason that I can see that this area would require someone to change the trail, and therefore I see no reason to slow down and look for obstacles. We are after all riding MTB’s aren’t we? I agree trails change ‘naturally’, but rocks don’t grow legs and make drops roll downs, people put them there. The BBQ patio already has an ‘A’ and ‘B’ line so why change the ‘A’ line. What's next, an escalator on the massive rock roll down shortly after the BBQ patio so everyone can stay on their bikes? If we wanted to be real assholes and selfish bikers why would we even bother with an ‘A’ and ‘B’ line, just make everything an ‘A’ line and make the beginners cope with the 3 foot drops But we have ‘B’ lines so everyone can enjoy the trail, so please don’t modify the ‘A’ line
Now I can hear you all saying that I am maniac who has no respect for others as I treat it as a race track but I have only had a handful of close calls in the 60 odd laps I have done and that was because a certain runner on Saturday mornings would run the single trail with his Weimaraner off the lead. Let me also point out that it was also at the time where the Rangers made this single trail MTB use only and off limits to foot traffic. I still kept an eye out obviously, but had the dog been on a lead I would be ‘close call’ free to this day. I know some of you that have replied to this thread do laps in about 30 minutes, I struggle to break 40, so am I really racing or just having the best fun I can for my fitness level and ability? In an effort to keep everyone happy maybe we should discard the words racing and having fun and simply say that you can no longer do a sub 40 minute lap to stop people riding too quickly….. I guess we couldn’t call it a race pace if that was the case….. or could we?????
I think Manly Dam needs someone to seriously look at the trail and re-evaluate the level of skill required to ride there. To say this is a ‘beginner’ trail is quite absurd. Lady Carrington Drive is a beginner MTB trail, I think Manly Dam is at minimum an intermediate level trail and should be noted that some skill will be required to ride it. Saying it is a beginner trail will obviously entice all levels of rider to come and that will even mean their young children. I know some kids are capable, but I can't begin to imagine how hard it would be to drag a bunch of 5yo’s through Manly Dam. I would however be happy to ride Lady Carrington Drive with that same bunch. Due to this some people are going to feel they have the right to modify the trail to their liking and ability. Actually, given it is noted as a beginner trail, the beginners probably think that the more experienced riders have modified the trail to make it harder and to suit the more experienced riders and therefore feel they can dumb down the harder stuff which we know isn’t the case……
I think the sooner decent signage is erected the better. I see no reason why a really nice large bill board with directions and some other details could not be put on the side wall of the treatment plant. Everyone needs to know how trails work. Not everyone gets on the internet like we do so most people would have no idea what the diamond stands for, which direction a trail should be ridden or even trail etiquette of any level. I have always been told Manly Dam was to be ridden in a clockwise direction, and believe there is signage advising this, albeit a very small sign, I can't remember where it is though. A large sign like this could have the traffic signal on it so the Rangers could quite easily change it to show the trail as being open, muddy but rideable, or flat out closed.
Damn, did I actually type all that!!!!!
That’s my $2.50 worth so back to work now
Please note that I said "if someone called TRACK or ASKED TO PASS IN ANY OTHER WAY, I would just follow normal etiquette and move over as soon as SAFELY possible". "Track" covers the experienced and "any other way" covers anyone else who may want to pass me or that I may want to pass. Smiley, I think it is great you are so tolerant of those in front of you. If you can just find it within to extend that courtesy to those behind you/faster than you, the Dam would be a far friendlier place.
Doesn't it take normally take a few days of straight rain before we get these threads
I didn't know about "track" until I started racing. And that was at least 12 months after I started riding around Manly Dam on a ladies cruiser.
Genreal courtesy is whats called for. You get dickheads everywhere in life. If youre a dickhead riding around MD, most likely that you are also a dickhead while riding a road bike as well as driving a Car on the road and so on.
If you are the type of person who wants to do a hotlap around Manly Dam in peak hr on a sat or sunday morning between 8am & noon .....well no one can help you. you will get held up by the recreational rider who has as much right to be there than the person doing the hot lap. The recreational rider actually has right of way. I think. Shouting Track or GTFO of my way doesnt help.
I've personally done shitloads of Hotlaps around Manly Dam. ( but still way off the 30 min barrier) sometimes you get held up along the single track.....ohh well thats just bad luck. But if I'm passing you at Mach 3 on the fire trial with loads of space & calling Passing on whatever side.....and it happens too often. pehaps I've chosen the wrong time of day to do this.
I usually do my hotlaps late in the evening or just on sunrise. Occasionally during the day through the week. if I get held up too often, Comon sense prevails abandon hotlap. too much traffic.
hip hip hooray lets have fun & enjoy lol
Cheers Smiley. I am just such a hero. But watch out. When I'm on my strava run wearing all my Trick Team Gear. I have automatic right of way.
A lot of things need to happen at the Dam.
Please support us, NobMob through Hawkeye and clubs in our work with Council to address track changes.
http://nobmob.com/node/38488
Certainly took a sharp turn from unauthorised track modification into trail etiquette.
I know the spot your talking about in regards to the dumbing down the track and I'm guilty of doing this in the same spot a couple of years ago. I was a beginner and having my first experience at MD with a mate. We where not forum users at the time and had zero idea about track ettiquiette or anything else for that matter. We stopped at alot of spots to session them. We had no idea about the b-line in the topic of disscussion and I placed a rock under the bottom step to help roll down. We done it then a few times to gain confidence, we had thought we were doing everyone a favour. On the second lap I rolled down again expecting the rock to still be there but it was gone, thankfully I rolled it ok. The rock was completely gone, I assumed it had been tossed into the bushes. I then also assumed that we had done wrong and let it be.
Just to reinforce, it wasn't me this time.
Hope this gives a better understanding of the mind of a beginner rider.
Once upon a time if you couldn't ride something you got off and walked.
B lines were odd things you found on race tracks that had to cater for kids.
I find the notion that you should be able to ride a complete track the first time without thinking about it odd.
For me learning a corner/drop/rock garden and seeing your self progressing is a massive part of the MTB experience.
There's a rock garden on a trail up home that I must have went OTB about a dozen times when I first started riding. Now days i sail through it with ease (On the big bike I even get in a pedal or two) but every time I come into it I sill remember the feeling I got the first time I rode it clean. It dosen't get much better than that
Walking a section that is too hard feels a lot better than a broken collarbone any day!