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Large Groups On Trails Etiquette??? OMV
Not sure about this one so would like to hear what others think.
This morning I rode OMV and came across at least two others groups that had 20+ riders with varying abilities. It almost wrecked the ride for me as there were constant traffic jams (even on downhill sections) and guys not giving way to faster riders. I even saw a guy crash, then pick up his bike and check for damage causing 5 other riders to stop as this muppet was blocking the trail!!! He didn't even let the other guys ride through even though he was clearly a slower rider. Now I know everyone has a right to ride and enjoy MTB trails and I think it's great to see so many people getting inspired to get out and enjoy OMV but I'm not sure I agree with very large groups hitting up the trails. If anyone disagrees I would love to hear your argument.
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I also rode OMV yesterday morning and it was packed. Easily 150 riders there. I found most of them were just hanging out down the bottom.
There were only a few people that just kept riding the whole section even though they were considerably slower than anyone else.
The good thing was we didn't see another single rider the whole time we were there ride the A-line near the top over the rock roll-up and skinny to drop off - every lap we had a clear run right through that section.
People were slow through the bermy/jumpy section and wouldn't pull over but didn't spoil our ride at all. We knew it would be busy and have riders of all abilities - thats why the council built it.
The person we found rude was a dude on a black BMC hardtail coming up the windy climb back to the road - he didn't pull over after being asked numerous times politely. Again we didn't get upset and just cruised behind him then passed him on the road before the top section.
Fantastic trails.
A lot of these guys and girls would be fairly new to the sport so are completely oblivious to trail etiquette. It's not really their fault as unfortunately there isn't a learners handbook given out when you start riding.
Yes it is frustrating and yes, some people may have left their common sense at home with them that morning but I'm afraid that's what you'll have to put up with for a while on a trail like OMV that's new and has everyone talking about it and riding there at weekends. That's why I keep out of the way of Manly Dam between 9am and 3pm at the weekends.
Maybe try and ride there at less busy times untill things settle down?
Yes, I was there. Clearly there were a lot of beginners which is great to see, but many of them don't know the trail etiquette yet. I too had a guy come off in front of me, then keep blocking the trail til he was ready to continue. I just waited for him and gave him a few words of encouragement - he was pretty young and very determined. I even saw one guy with his bike upside down doing some trail maintenance partially blocking one of the switchback corners.
At Stromlo they've got signs explaining how to let faster riders past. Maybe something similar would help at OMV? As for larger groups, I think they should be encouraged to split up into smaller groups when they ride - it's very hard to work your way through through a group of 20 slow riders.
It doesnt help being such a small circuit at the moment. Perhaps its not that the person in front is so slow but its the traffic congestion that slows everyone down. I'm confident it would get better when stage 2 is open.
Manly Dam seems a bit quieter. Thanks OMV.
Seriously though while it is so new and fresh, I'll be avoiding it during peak times, especially on weekends. While daylight saving is still in effect the best time for me would be after work during the week.
I am with everyone else, stick with it and learn to live with it in the interim.
Brand new trails with such short lengths are always going to be an issue for the quicker riders and its why i would prefer to stay away until it quitens down a little.
I think that would be my only criticism of OMV, for the most part there isnt really anywhere for someone to pull off the trial entirely. I underatand thats the nature of the trail but it may be something to look into
Good opportunity to join in, meet new people and share your knowledge and awesome skills.
Why is every one in such a hurry these days. Did it ruin a strava run or something
I rode there yesterday pm with my 8yr old on his ridged 20 inch bike. Yes there were plenty of people but no issues. We only needed to stop 2 or 3 times to allow people through on the long blue run and the only section he could not make (or did not want to have a go at) was the rocky right hand descending turn. My point is that the trail was great, fantastic flow and yes it is nice to pin the sections, but it is not Whistler A line. Enjoy it for what it is (for example the perfect trail to take your young pinner), but recognise because it is a simple track not everyone will be fast or as competent and trail savvy as you. Everyone we met, even when held up for a short while, only had good things to say and were positive of my son’s riding - something he was stoked about.
Now all we need is to convince someone to allow a trail like that to weave down parallel to the downhill fire trail at the dam....
So maybe I need to be a bit clearer with my original post. The issue I have is group riding. There were heaps of riders Sunday morning but I'm referring to the two groups I saw which had 20+ riders in each group. Groups of this size not only affects the faster riders but also the slower riders that end up having to wait a few minutes while everyone rides past. I agree with a previous comment on this thred about groups being encouraged to split into smaller groups. Hope this takes any ambiguity out of my first post. I think it's great seeing beginners out at OMV, we were all there once......
Pleasantly surprised at the tolerance being shown on this subject however I would suggest that most groups are usually lead by an experienced rider that should instruct the noobs on trail manners. The leader needs to be held responsible for all the havoc his noobs do and riders that have suffered from his lack of control should feel free to share their pain with this leader. Seriously I don't give a rats !@$%^ if you have stubbed your toe & want to cry about it, unless you have broken your back & cant move get off the trail & cry there. (sorry... you were all being too nice)
(sorry... you were all being too nice)
Sorry duncan but nice and chillaxed is what MTB is (or, at least, was) all about.
save that prima-donna stuff for the roadies (tongue planted firmly in cheek)
In all seriousness NPs set group size limits (20 from memory) but if you are out to race enter a race. How hard is it to stop have a chat and let the slow guys get away before charging down, or follow and give some tips.
I actually find it more of a challenge riding behind some one slower as it gets you out of your natural rhythm and you have to think about your riding more.
Ok so not heaps of single trail but there is enough legal and semi legal (tolerated) single trails plus HEAPS of fire trail. Somewhere like OMV and Manly Dam will always be busier than Terry Hills or Cascades.
Pick your fun... Social or solitary...then pick your trail.
for being the calm voice of wisdom.
When I first started on MTB riding back in 2005 most of it was with one or two mates but also with a social group I had stumbled upon on-line. Our rides were about having fun together, not about who could set the fastest lap times here or there. We'd explore, we'd spend ages going over small sections of trail laughing at and with each other, we'd stop to regroup and chat even though we'd done that not more than about 15 minutes ago. We'd travel and go to new places we had heard of. Riding wasn't about how fast we could clear a trail but about having fun doing it with people that mattered to us.
Things changed, this site got busier, the groups got bigger. Some people improved, a lot, some like me haven't got any better. We started doing races which meant training, people got even faster but for the most part we never forgot to get together and have fun riding. Those that trained often did so in smaller groups and at appropriate places because their goal for that ride was training, not socialising. But we'd still have our social rides.
Sadly I am beginning to realise that not everyone has experienced this side of the sport. I don't know if it is the changes in society that have occurred in that time with our demands for the "me here and now" instant gratuitous fix becoming the norm but people do seem to be in a rush to get to the end of their rides a hell of a lot more now.
Darren, slow down and smell the trail side flowers once in a while. Hey next time why not join the group and meet some new people, they may just end up being great mates that you end up growing old laughing with.
To be specific to your question and OMV, no, you need to learn some patience. As has been mentioned, brand new sniggle that people want to ride and in large numbers. Very few spots to pull over and let you through SAFELY, particularly if they were inexperienced riders, without having to leave the trail and damage the surrounding bush. As for the "leader" telling others what to do, a group that big on tight trails like OMV, the leader could feasibly a couple of hundred meters away and unaware of the last rider having had a fall. I would like to think if I came across that the first thing I'd do is stop and make sure the guy, or gal, was ok. Have a bit of a chat with them during which you can make suggestions to them about getting themselves sorted on the side of the trail, not in the middle of it, and then they jump back on again when there is a break in the traffic.
Life shouldn't be about a race to the end but about a hell of a great journey.
enough ramblings from this old fart. Get out and enjoy the trails, but not OMV now because we aren't allowed to night ride there.
kitttheknightrider, i dont think i am guilty of being one of those people your describing entirely, but i know i am to some degree. I dont go out and call strava run on anybody i come across but i do know that when i come across a slower rider that doesnt move over it does somewhat dampen my ride when you get stuck behind someone on your favourite section of trail. I was that slower rider once upon a time hence the reason i have tollerance. I am not out to race but i am also not out to go slow either.
I think once OMV gets some more trial built it will certainly help. I dont know what the proposed trail length is meant to be but lets hope its considerably more than they curreently have.
Now having said all this, i think something a lot of people are missing these days is common sense. I mean it doesnt take Einstein to realise that if you have a rider behind you suddenly it might mean its time to find somewhere to pull over and let them past. It also shouldnt require Einstein to realise that a bunch of 20 slow riders on a trail like OMV is going to cause some back log.
Maybe SNORC could put up some trail ettiquette signs on their lovely new sign board
Last time i was there i didnt see one, maybe they already have
Great Discussion thanks to all for keeping it civil, the signs at OMV are controlled by council but we will take this feed back to them about including tail etiquette on future signs. We always new the number of riders at OMV would be big, but they are even starting to surprise us with a recent Sunday recording 778 laps on just 3 km of trail and over 11,000 laps in 3 months even when closed half the time due to rain. Yes stage 2 will start soon and give us another 3 km which should help spread the load. (A big day at Manly Dam is around 500 Laps)
The management of trails is new to Council and even though many of us in the club have been riding and involved in MTB for over 20 years OMV is still throwing up new challenges for all.
So thanks for your patients and feed back
Craig
SEC SNORC
Raced at the Willo on the weekend always a great race one of my favourites. Willo isn't technically difficult.
First part of the single track has two trees at least a meter wide. Waited here for a couple of minutes as people walked there bikes through. Next section a very slight rock roll again waited 5 minutes as people walked there bikes down.
I understand people learning their skills on the local tracks we have all been there. But for racing there should be some basic skill level required. ie if you have never riden single track, and only fire trail, don't let a race be a place to try it for the first time. I'm no elite rider, just your average joe blow rider out racing against my self for fun. When i asked if i could get past, i was looked at like i was jumping the que. As for faster riders guys and girls (yes i get overtaken by plenty of girls) at the pointy your etiquette and skills amaze me. Most of the you are polite, always give some encouragement to me ( one of my greatest moments was at the very wet and hot Bottlebutt race a couple of years ago, i wasn't travelling to well, and Mr English slowed down for a 10 sec chat and some encouragement, felt better than downing a GU). You have the skill to pass in the impossible situation. Just some views from the middle of the pack.
If this sort of thing troubles you, don't take up weekend surfing in Sydney!
Particularly on the city beaches between Bondi and the Bra. Seriously every wave will have a flotilla of about 50 surfers, a dozen eskylids, and the odd goatboat - all fighting for the scraps.
Mountain Biking, even at a busy spot, is serene in comparison.
OMV is not a race track. It's just a track (albeit a nice one) and everyone has an equal right to be on it and riding at their own pace. If I get stuck behind a slow car on a winding road, I don't get angry because the driver doesn't pull over (much as it might be nice). He's got a right to be there and I've just gotta live with that until I can pass safely.
Having said that, there is maybe a lesson for trail builders everywhere - some passing sections will not go astray. There is little opportunity at OMV, apart from the fire trail section, for a slower rider to pull to one side and let someone past safely without stopping and dragging the bike off the track. Stopping and starting like that is not much fun for them (I know from my "racing" experience
), nor is it much fun having someone up your clacker when there is nowhere to pull over easily and let them past without stopping.
This sport is getting so popular, maybe the racers (and wannabe racers) will need to book practice time just like they would at Eastern Ck or Wakefield Park for their race cars if they want a clear fast go at a track....
I wonder how the slower riders will feel when they turn up to ride only to be turned back because 3-4pm is a fast session only?
I was thinking more like 5.00-6.00 am....
but a bit of notice might be required to educate the populace.
Sit back, crack a beer, spectate and maybe learn something new
i would be a spectator lol
Well said Lach. My thoughts exactly. When we talk of trail etiquette, can someone summarize what they should be? Giving way to a faster rider? Don't block the trail? What else.
I have an issue with the "give way to a faster rider" one for one very specific reason. I believe it tends to give faster riders the expectation that slower riders should move out of their way as soon as they cross paths. Not all fast riders are like that but it certainly does lend to the expectation that people will move out of their way just because they are in a rush to get to the end. As I have stated and others have reiterated, there are very few places to pull over and let people past at OMV.
ozgti I know you mean "when it is safe to" and that would go without saying for most but both phrases must be put together for those that don't fall into the "most" category. Unfortunately there does seem to be a growing number of those that don't fit the "most" category
At the end of the day it should fall down to simple consideration of other trail users, regardless of who they are.
Hey Kit, I was just using thoses as an example as I myself am unclear as to what peoples expectations are when it comes to trail ettiquette. What are the ones posted at stromlo?
disenchantment with the territorialism and aggro in the water is one of the reasons I quit surfing and took up mtb. The open and helpful attitude of other riders made the decision to stick with it through the (sometimes painful) learning process easy.
We don't own the facility, Hornsby ratepayers funded it. We also need to remember these beginners (whatever their age) are the future of our sport. They ensure not only its continuation , but its growth and prosperity. Who will buy our old bikes next time we are looking to upgrade? These guys, or someone like them. The more numbers we have the easier it is to justify to land managers that we need MORE trails, and they NEED to give them to us.
So I think it's important for us more experienced riders to remember we are ambassadors for our sport. If you feel the need to explain trail etiquette, think of it as an opportunity to showcase your diplomatic skills.
How would you feel if Gordo, Ants or Jason English let rip with how crap you are when they pass you at a race? Instead, what do these guys do? They actually go out of their way to to cheer YOU on as they pass you!
Copy that.
+1
A sunny Sunday morning at a brand new family oriented facility is no place for Stravapests.
Better to stop, have a chat, offer some encouragement and then possibly say "hey, let's move off the line while we are stopped". No one loses face and you still get the point across.
This thred has nothing to do with Strava. I know there are many Strava haters out there who like having a whinge given the opportunity. Please go and join your fellow Strava haters on the endless amounts of threds created just for you. Just google 'I hate strava'. Leave this thred for people who want to make positive and constructive comments on how best to deal with and educate people on heavily used trails! Just google 'I hate strava'.
kitttheknightrider, I'm not out there trying to get in peoples way or shave a second of my fastast time. I like trying to flow down a trail and find the best lines and yes, i do like hooking into coners but isn't that why we ride MTB?? I'm not in a rush to get anywhere, I just like riding my bike. When I'm interested in taking in the scenery and smelling the flowers I head up to the mountains and take a bushwalk.
Having said that, everyone who rides a bike has a responsibilty to do so in a safe way as to not cause harm or injury to others. The last thing we need now is for a few people to get hurt and council shutting down the trails. Because of the high amounts of traffic at OMV, maybe a few trail etiquette rules posted on the sign board would be a good idea? Also suggestions of encouraging and educating inexperienced riders when you do come across issues is a great idea. I would hate to have the surfing culture come into mountain biking.
Anyway, the weather is perfect so i'm off to OMV for a few laps!!!
I agree with Darren, this thread has veered off slightly. No-one's saying that getting held up occasionally and politely waiting for a chance to get past is a problem, that's the way it works in the real world and rarely spoils anyone's fun. I think the issue that was raised is large groups that you just can't get past, I'm not a pushy rider at all but I would find it quite frustrating if I had to do a full lap at the lowest common denominator speed without a chance to ride at my own pace.
Wasn't a reference to you Darren, just a general observation.
There's two extremes of users that are going to come into conflict if patience and courtesy isn't observed.
At one extreme would be the beginners and familes, and the other end is the stravapest. Most of us I would think are somewhere in the middle.
A busy new facility packed with beginners at the busiest possible time (Sunday Morning) is the last place for the stravapests. Can't really argue with that, surely?
In relation to your comment:
I did exactly that:
I'm no strava pest, but I also don't want to crawl along at a snails pace and have to stop/start all the time. One of the great things about riding is bettering your skills and for me that means, being able to go with the flow of the trail and be able to hit obstacles that require a certain amount of speed. A lot of those features have been built into the trail at OMV.
At the end of the day though, I understand it's a new trail that will open up a whole new world to a lot of beginners, which is why I will not ride it during peak times.
Right. Going back to my surfing analogy, if you want to get 20 long clean uninterrupted waves in a 2 hour surf. You don't rock up at Bondi on Sunday morning.
You do a road trip. Or hit up a bombie @6 foot+ where the difficulty factor keeps the crowds down a bit.
In MTB terms, something like Red Hill.
Unfortuantely for some of us the peak period is the only time we get a chance to ride. We arent all lucky enough to be able to simply leave work to get out on the bike
I guess i should think myself lucky that we didnt encounter what the OP was talking about when i rode OMV for the first time. I would have been pretty diaspponted to have driven an hour and half to find i couldnt enjoy the trail. Its also because of the above that i wont ride their for some time. I am not trying to say the attitudes of riders there stinks or the trails are crap, i simply refuse to travel an hour and a half and run the risk of arriving at a trail that is over run by riders. Note to the trail designers – throw in some stopping bays for those less experienced
As has been said above, we all go out to ride our bike, and I am sure most of you will agree that a stop start stop start ride is not what you are wanting every time you take the bike out. OMV has some pretty awesome trail features and in order to make the most of them some speed is required and with a lot of them the faster you go the more enjoyable they become. Have a look at their videos, they don’t show you riders going slow and rolling over the undulations of the land, they show the riders railing corners and getting some decent air off the features. This is how OMW is best enjoyed in my eyes. Now before you go shooting me down in flames scroll up and read my previous posts
I think something also needs to be made pretty clear with our comments. There is a big difference between some of us who simply like to ride at our own pace and those Strava pests. We wont go off at a rider for getting in our way, we get upset yeah, but we keep it inside and offer encouragement as we ride past. A Strava pest will make his anger known quite quickly so there is a big difference.
I often take mixed groups out (thought rarely that large). I often come across other riders of different abilities. I like meeting new riders so try and join in or at lest have a chat. When I get to my fav section and am held up I'll do 1 of 3 things.
1. Follow them down and give tips and advise. Maybe even offering to pull up and demo a better line for them. Easy and rewarding.
2. Stop and let them get far enough ahead so I can have a blat before catching them at the bottom. Easy and rewarding.
3. Push/ride back up the section and go again. Easy and rewarding.
It really is easy and rewarding
For the record I like going fast and have the occasional KOM to my name. I just think life is too short and riding too much fun to get nnoyed because other riders are on your trail and don't know to pull over and let the fast guy through.
You have to remember when you have a noob they are often fully focused on getting down the trail. pulling over every 5min is the last thing they want too.
I don't tend to move over till the rider behind says something like "On your right" or "I'll just get past you here" or something. If it's that important they can ask. I've asked people behind me if they want to get past and they say "no" often. I like to cruise along slower sometimes, it's relaxing. I can understand the large groups being a bit disruptive. Generally I feel any group larger than (say) 6 is getting too big for a little trail, it's not hard to break up into smaller groups.
+1. Don't wanna cause a stack by breaking their concentration at the wrong moment. However, I find that on demanding descent sections most beginners hear you coming and would rather pull over and let you through than have the distraction of hearing someone seemingly right on their back wheel
FYI, Good chance I will be visiting for my second time on Saturday Peak. I Will be bringing someone new to Mountain Biking.
On topic!
The Oaks has a group limit of 12, any group above this is considered an event and requires due process. (or basically split up)
A big difference in trails considering the Oaks is Mostly firetrail and 25km long.
Perhaps if OMV do update the trailhead sign to include etiquette they could also ask groups to ride at say 6 max or split into smaller groups leaving decent gaps vetween groups.