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Fragile Sydney Sandstone
http://www.npansw.org.au/web/news/media_release....
"NPA invites Mr Baird to join it in inspecting the damage done by mountain bikes within the fragile Sydney sandstone bushland..."
Erm... OK... and I invite him to come look at the 1000s of steps that walkers have cut into steep paths in the fragile Sydney sandstone.
Pot... kettle... etc 
Update: BTW, I should point out that the NPA in no way controls NPWS. They are simply an independent lobby organisation, just as we are.
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That's an interesting Media Release and are we now seeing NPA's real agenda with wanting to keep MTB out of the parks completely? Even in a managed access arrangement?
As for inspecting the damage done I hope they don't go and have a look at Red Hill! I went up there earlier today for the first time ever and was appalled at the condition and damage that has been done to the area. I realise that it is not all due to MTB and there certainly are a lot of tracks from motorbikes, however it is a real mess
There are examples of extreme erosion, cutting channels 1 metre and more deep. The tracks are all over the place and widening in many places to go around obstacles or puddles. There is rubbish strewn through the bush, discarded building materials (pallets) and carpet. If this is what would happen if MTB's were allowed to ride in National Parks then no wonder NPA want to block it.
I realise that Red Hill is actually private property and not a National Park, however seeing this it would be hard to say that things would turn out different if it was NP.
I bumped into two gentlemen walking and taking photos of the tracks/puddles whilst I was there. So I stopped and said hello and we ended up have a lengthy discussion about damage to parks caused by bikes. These two were very anti-MTB in general and especially in National Parks. I argued that access to riding trails was needed and that wouldn't it be better to provide it in a controlled manner where concerns such as erosion can be managed properly rather than banning it completely. A complete ban will not keep people out, and those that do then ride in the parks will be causing even more damage as they'll be making their own tracks etc. I raised Manly Dam as being an area where a managed and controlled MTB track is working, where MTB'ers are happy with the trail. They argued that we are likely to lose access there too due to the irresponsible behaviour of people riding it whilst it is closed. They quoted the 100's of people that rangers saw riding it the other weekend including deliberately lifting their bikes over the no access signs.
How can we argue that if we get tracks in National Parks that they won't be destroyed as Manly Dam is lately? Will MTB'ers be happy with tracks created for our use and not stray into the bush looking for something more challenging or narrower?
BTW if those two gentlemen are reading this, and you indicated reading various campaigns for MTB on the Internet, then please take the time to respond with your views. Open discussion from all interested parties will help us arrive at a suitable solution for everyone.
Quite an interesting time for the MTB sport in general! It's difficult living in this area surrounded by such lovely bushland and having such restricted access to it. Yes it needs to be preserved and maintained for future generations, but do we have to view it from such a distance and not be allowed to enjoy it in the way we choose? A few managed tracks through the bush is not going to destroy it. If we raise everyone's awareness of the issues involved: erosion, destruction of bushland, flora and fauna, etc then we will know what is right and wrong for the bush and help maintain it.
Regards,
Loki
I just had a look at the About Us page on that link. This APA group has 5,000 members.
No reason people like us can't join up and promote our views within that outfit. After all they have to be accountable to their members.
As it stands, it sounds like their constituency is old bearded men in safari suits with birdwatcher's binculars.
It's important for national parks to be enjoyed, appreciated and preserved by the next generation, and the one after.
Their problem the APA is not going to attract them, and the number of parks users will dwindle and the parks sorta get forgotten about.
Since I took up MTB I've appreciated national parks more than I ever did previously, and I never leave a single thing behind. I suspect most of us are similar.
I thought the whole point of this (talking to parks) would be so that we (the mountain biking community) could organize properly managed and designed trails with in the national parks areas so that the problems that are being pointed out would not be a problem as many properly managed trail networks around Australia (and the world) have proven. It's not like we (mountain bikers) want to have a riding trail in every park in every state. But access with properly designed trails in a couple would be nice and most are large enough that there is ample space for "activity" trails as well as the environment while taking into account places where walker's /mtb's /horse rider’s /moto's...... should not be going and routing trails around "sensitive areas".
If the decision is made that there just going to shut people out guess what there will be a group that will still do it and it will be a bigger issue than if it was just done properly in the first place.
It is unfortunate that some people ride the damn when it's closed it only gives these kinds of groups more ammunition.
(And yes there is some Pot and Kettle - it's amazing what poorly managed or designed walking trail can look like as well and you can't tell me walkers don't go down them. Have a look at some of the "trails" to get a better view along the manly to middle harbor walk)
I appreciate that a lot of effort has been put into lobbying NPWS for trail access but I wonder if it ever would really work. (putting flame suit on).
Most of us hold up Manly Dam as a shining example of how proper trail management can work however there are many in the community that will always point to any stone out of place as an example of how MTB = environmental damage. (not in anyway defending any of the mess highlighted in previous posts)
As awareness of environmental issues increases so will the conditions placed on riders & trail managers perpetuating the conflict between riders & the community at large. i.e. What’s considered 1st class trail management today will be unacceptable in the future.
I heard in the news today that the shooters party is making strides to gain access to national parks for hunting. As much as the thought of this horrifies me the argument they are mounting (culling ferrule animals) and lack of environmental damage seems to make their pitch an easier sell than the MTB cause.??? (maybe)
I may be in la la land but it seems to me that the only way MTB will be viable long term is on dedicated land where a limited amount of environment damage is acceptable. (don’t forget MTB includes DH & freeride) After all there are plenty of other sports that require large amounts of land that don’t seem to suffer the same scrutiny. (how many golf courses are on the northern beaches?)
I guess that getting our hands on such a piece land is another question however food for though anyway.
Cheers
@Duncan... another negative post like the only other you have put here: http://nobmob.com/node/7976 Try not to get yourself a reputation, eh?
Trail access in National Parks is viable and it does work. But only in those parks where the motivation and care factor is there. Look at The Oaks. Look at Thredbo. And hopefully look to Glenrock.
So what is required here is some positive motivation and support to help this happen in Sydney, not whining and negativity as you display.
Private land would be nice - let's hope a Sydney rider with a charitable side wins the upcoming lotto!
Reading the article you can either argue each point ie how many accidents of bikes running into walkers , is the damage MTB's or motorbikes, or natural erosion , or you can pick on the positives. Mr Cox seems to recognize the need for areas to be set aside for adventure activities- just not National parks. This is the same basis as NZ which is recognized as a good country for MTB's . Maybe even some part of a Park can be made into a regional Park (like they did when NPWS took over Yellomundee about 10 years ago) and used as a Sparrow Hill type area with a very intensive network of trails. Unfortunately as Sydney grows fatter the riding areas get further afield, discouraging the young
re. the shooters bill...I singed against the shooters bill. However, after reading Goodoo's explanation i am not so sure i made the right move there. Thanks for providing another balanced view Goodoo...it was very interesting.
now, re. the anit-MTB issue...this is a bit personal and i know some people won't agree with the angle i look at this but, as food for thought, here's what i emailed...
Hi Andrew, cc. NPWS and Mr Baird MP
As both a lover of National Parks and a keen mountain biker (MTB) I would like to bring to your attention some misunderstandings that I think you have with the idea of MTB's accessing National Parks.
Firstly, NP's are to be enjoyed by people. In between rapid building development in metropolitan areas and pure conservation (limited access) areas, outdoor enthusiast like myself need, and are entitled to, some play areas too. Tax payer dollars fund football fields, tennis courts, boat ramps, fish cleaning decks, white water rafting complexes and more. Why should MTB's be ignored...it is a very popular activity. Indeed, walkers are provided with hundreds of trails throughout NP's state wide. Why shouldn't there be some trails designated exclusively for MTB? A MTB is exactly the same as a walking trail and erosion issues can be managed easily, as has been proven at existing, highly used MTB trails. Walkers have so many trails but you are saying that MTB riders should have to travel up to an hour out of Sydney (to state forests) to pursue their activity...this is plainly not fair. Assuming, for arguments sake, that a bike is three times as damaging to soils as walking (which may well be an overestimate), then one MTB trail is no more damaging than three walking trails. So why not open a few designated bike trails and restore some walking trails and fire trails? (NP's are plagued with hundreds of rarely used walking trails and excessively numerous and wide fire trails which are a scare on the environment).
As a closing note, can I remind you how passionate I am about NP's, as I am about outdoor adventure sports, by copying part of what I wrote to MP's regarding the shooting bill..."National Parks are a very special place for me. Such places of beauty is where I find my calm and happiness in this busy modern day..." I do not think a few MTB trails will diminish this beauty any more than walking trails and fire trails have.
Kind regards,
Mark, there's nothing much wrong with that. Although I'd have to disagree about the hunting thing but we're a MTB site so...
I'd encourage anyone to read the IMBA science and research pages. There are many studies which show MTB riding has no more impact than walking.
Anyone who was at last year's Mont will know this - after literally thousands of riders (think there were 2400 entrants) had been lapping the course for 24 hours it was still pretty much in tip-top shape. Walkers should come and witness a 24 (or 8 hour race for that matter) to see how little properly designed tracks are affected by heavy use.
Having ridden there a few times recently (before all the rain) I actually think the Erosion is largely a result of a combination of moto's and natural water coursing, not cyclists.
A person on a pushbke weighs about 12kg more than a a walker, and generates the same amount of "power"
Consider this, the erosion on the steep technical sections is caused by Motos spinning their rear wheel trying to claw their way up the hill. Most of the really steep uphills at Red Hill are hike-a-bike for the mtb riders. We just don't have the power and momentum to get up these sections the way the motos do. I saw this happening when I was there - the motos would get hung up on an obstacle while climbing, and then they would just spin up the rear and power their way out, throwing rocks and mud everywhere. No way a cyclist can do that!
Also most of the rubbish I saw was off moto's (eg: front mudguard, clutch lever!)
Also, red hill is less vegetated than other bushland in the area (hence the name). This means that natural water runoff will cause erosion. Note that Erosion is a perfectly natural process and is not necessarily a bad thing. This is how the Grand Canyon was formed, and closer to home, Kangaroo Valley.
The UK has seen rapid growth of commercial centres designed specifically for walkers and bikers. Some of these are truly world class and generate significant revenue for the area. Maybe advocating something more along these lines will gain the attention of the powers that be. Nothing speaks louder than money to them. Take a look at Afan Forest as an example:
http://www.mbwales.com/Default.aspx
http://www.mbwales.com/en/content/cms/centres/af...
These have accommodation, a bike shop, cafes etc all on the door step. Imagine of the land owners of Red Hill realised the potential revenue they could generate and develop sustainable trails. I know Mt Stromlo has done similar but I think given it's location Sydney now needs something close to home.
Got to dare to dream!
Playing devils advocate
Generally yes but under breaking and in corners an MTB could weigh much more than this. Also with gearing on the MTB more power is put through a very small contact patch than a walker, so I don't think this is a good argument. However I do believe that the bulk of the damage at Red Hill is caused by moto's and wet riding, and that properly maintained MTB tracks would sustain no visable damage from cyclists.
Anyone that saw the condition of Majura Pines after the recent 24 (including a downpour in the middle) will say the same. I rode it before and after the race and the track was in great condition considering how many kilometers had been ridden into it.
Andrew Cox of National Parks seems intent on creating a sterile and empty bushland used only for walkers. Very un-Australian indeed!.
With so much land and national park in Australia it is a lame excuse to ban mountain bikers due to some scratches on rock. Other man made (non mountain biker) rock scratchings are artworks and listed heritage items.
National parks should focus on the real damage done by bush fires, flood erosion and ironically the 'precious' crushed rock caused by bulldozers clearing the firebreaks.
National Park's mandate is to increase park usage - they should welcome the rapidly growing number of bush appreciative, healthy mountain bikers and not play dictator with THE PEOPLES' PARK.
i normaly keep away from these debate's but,,,, i wonder if anyone gave a shit when, years ago the 'walkers' decided to 'destroy' perfectly pristine bushland in order to cut a 'singletrack' so they could get out there, enjoy there pastime and get closer to nature.
i dont think that all these walking tracks were once animal tracks? trees were obviously cut down to make these tracks and bushland was disturbed by humans. there's a lot of land out there and it pisses me off that old school,old fashioned, out of date rules and regulations keep us from enjoying it! i think some people need to get with the times!
I agree with you mate.
One other thing to remember is the past is unchangeable but the future is not...
I remember a year or so ago when i started riding and i found all this awesome stuff to ride and gradually over time i learned this spot and then that spot was naughty. Slowly but surely you feel the walls closing in and youre left with Manly dam single track section the only fun within city riding distance ( as i dont drive).
C'est La Vie.
Why do some people always have to take it too far? Comparing chain ring marks to the artwork of the indigenous people and using erosion studies funded by a MTB-biased body?? Fire and flooding are natural processes. C'mon...i thought we were being serious here. And tread carefully when you say that land is there to be used...that's the same argument developers use.
This comment has been moved here.
My first outing to Red Hill was with the nobmob gang.
A pair of motorcycles came past..barely keeping up with us in the rough env. One of the bikes in front of me got stuck a little ... FANG FIZZ WRRR.... He carved a chunk out the trail about 20cm wide and about 15cm deep and about 30cm long at least. I was in shock.
My thought was, that would take walkers or mountain bikes 100's of passes to do that level of damage.
Cant help but thinking that Red Hill area, MTB damage gets confused with Motor Bike damage.
... perhaps we need a "recreation party" . There is obviously a high level of unhappiness, that I thought I was alone in, until joining nobmob forum.
My exp is that govt needs momentum against it to move, thats why people like shooters have a formal lobby group. Case in point in USA - NRA is the most influential lobby group. Nobmob on its own is not enough, but there are many nobmobs around ... = meganobmob = recreation lobby group. Yes, i know, easy to say...
Makes me tear up to see the MBWales website quote "your guide to mountain biking in Wales" ... bikers benefit, economy benefits. aarghh.
I'm sitting @ LAX catching up on the forums. I have just had 4 great rides in Colorado & would like to share the following.
In common use areas - Hiking/MTB & Horse riding, some are shared & you take your chance & some are hike only. On weelends it's Saturday - Hike & Sunday -Bike or odd & even dates.
Obviously it's different terrain & they dry a lot faster but in Sydney with the weather we've had, close the parks to everybody no matter what your mode of transport is @ we'll all wait it out.
See you Wednesday @ Manly Dam.
I was up at Cromer Heights / Red Hill a few weekends ago and was shocked at how bad the erosion at the hand of trailbikes has gotten. How do I know it was a trail bike.. easy.. I watched him try to get through a mud pit at full throttle for 30 seconds. He left a nice big crater in his place.
Red hill is my regular ride, although I have only been riding it for about 6 months, I'm a local and used to run/walk it for about the last 20 years.
I have seen my fair share of motocross riders doing very deliberate bad things to some of the single tracks, you just have to have a look at the recent damage done after the rain to the run up the fire trail to the carvings and down some of the sections to the cromer road entrance tracks, its easy to see what they are capable of in a very short period of time.
Most weekends I see just as many motocross guys as MTB, a lot of them are not registered and in the hands of kids.. I shudder to think what would happen (litigation wise) if they were to hit anyone?
Certainly not all damage is done by the moto guys but I'd wager they do the higher percentage and I think it would be fair to say that there is NO way that any sustainable trail system could be achieved anyplace with those guys ripping up.
But I also have to remind myself that this place is hardly pristine bushland and its completely surrounded by suburbia, including a stinking rubbish tip a few miles away leaching who knows what into the catchment for a lake that's long overdue some serious conservation and remedial work.
No mater how bad it gets up there (moto and MTB destruction) you can just about always look up and see a road, a roof line.. find a dumped car or two.. So really what's the point in bothering being too precious about MTB riding a place like that when there are much more important places and things to really protect?